What makes speakers "disappear " and can it be measured?

[boxerfan88]

A very good question indeed.

I don’t think I have come across definitive study/theory/measurements.

My personal speculation is that when both L&R measurements match identically at the listening position, both speakers can disappear perfectly. This ideal situation is unlikely to be realized in the real world, thus my speculation is that when the differences between L&R measurements are small in the midband (i speculate between 500Hz-10kHz), then the speakers are likely to “disappear”.

 

[RayDunzl]

What makes speakers "disappear"?

Effective: Turn off the lights.

Very Effective: Close yer eyes.

Most Effective: Fall asleep.

 

[Ktacos]

My journey with diy speakers has led me to believe that diffraction aetifacrs are the biggest contributor to whether a speaker will disappear well or not. My little grimm ls1 knocks are still the best sounding thing I've made in this regard.

 

[dlaloum]

Yeah and I can trow out handfuls of speakers as well.




Crap I forgot to include diffraction in my list… but I am really not 100% that makes a speaker become apparent.

A spherical speaker is also sorta missing hard edges for diffraction.
Or is it mostly just resonance @dlaloum ?

Nah I think diffraction is another of those nasty cues that our ears pick up on....

Strangely - I find that speakers that don't look like speakers, are the most likely not to sound like speakers - or perhaps that isn't so strange at all!!

 

[Timcognito]

Does Imagination play a role in how we enjoy Sound Stage?

We already got 50 threads or so discussing that :D

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Matthias McCready]

Putting speakers outdoors will reveal that they sound dead thin and lifeless without a room around them.

That just means you need a bigger rig. haha


You are correct that without walls you lose room gain, and you need a lot more low-end in free space, but I do love hearing a system outdoors. Once you have large enough system which can provide the needed additional gain and lowend (usually 2-4x subs vs indoors) listening to a rig with minimal reflections is glorious.
---

Granted I work on PA's a lot Mixing on a nice Meyer Sound or L'Acoustics rig outdoors, puts me in my happy place!

 

[DavidMcRoy]

There are a few factors:

1. Observable the way Amir tests speakers, i.e. listening to a single speaker, there should be no pseudo-stereo "spread" in the sound of one speaker playing alone. The sound should seem to originate from a point in space. (It's easy to detect things like acoustically out-of-phase drivers and undue diffraction effects this way.)

2. In stereo listening, the two speakers' sound and their interactions with the room should be as close to being as perfectly symmetrical as possible.

 

[Holmz]

…. (It's easy to detect things like acoustically out-of-phase drivers and undue diffraction effects this way.)
…

But that is not something that works its way into the “rating”.
Hardly anyone but you and I, care about phase and impulse response.

 

[ShadowFiend]

From my experience, speakers "disappear" when
1. they control edge diffraction of itself well, either through big round over or non-parallel beveled baffle (if baffle is narrow) or very wide baffle and/or waveguide/horn in tweeter.
2. there are not much obstables near the speakers which cause diffraction.
3. stiff, well-braced, non-resonance cabinet.
4. constant directivity design (dipole, omnidirectional, well-blended horn system)

 

[JaapD]

As already mentioned: omni directional sound. I think a point source (i.e. a small directivity horn speaker) would provide maximum awaraness of the speaker position. Similar like direct sunlight vs. a cloudy sky (from which direction does the light come from?).

Room reflextions would certainly have impact as well.

Cheers!

 

[robh36062]

A blindfold!

Rob

 

[Davide]

What makes speakers "disappear"?
And can it be measured ?

My wife if I don't object.
I can also measure her determination with a fairly large dynamometer.

Seriously, in my case they disappear more when I don't use Dirac Live. But I'm still trying to figure out why.

 

[ShadowFiend]

As already mentioned: omni directional sound. I think a point source (i.e. a small directivity horn speaker) would provide maximum awaraness of the speaker position. Similar like direct sunlight vs. a cloudy sky (from which direction does the light come from?).

Room reflextions would certainly have impact as well.

Cheers!

I disagree. Good horn system can "disappear" like any omnidirectional. Problem with horn system is that
Firstly, most of them have horn only in upper midrange and treble section. Below that frequency it is a normal box speaker, so if diffraction can not be controlled well then the "disappear" quality is lost.
Secondly, if the horn is big enough to cover midrange frequency as well (from 800-1kHz up) then the c-t-c between horn and woofer is big and will need a long minimum distance so that the sound of horn and woofer can blend together, unless it is a big MEH (multi entry horn). If listener is at too close position, the "disappear" quality can not exist.

 

[YSC]

1) poke your eyes with something sharp
2) buy something good and expensive, remove the CCTV and give me a key
3) tell your wife you spent 100k on speakers
4) turn off the lights

 

[richard12511]

My journey with diy speakers has led me to believe that diffraction aetifacrs are the biggest contributor to whether a speaker will disappear well or not. My little grimm ls1 knocks are still the best sounding thing I've made in this regard.

DIY Grimm LS1 sound great!

 

[DavidMcRoy]

But that is not something that works its way into the “rating”.
Hardly anyone but you and I, care about phase and impulse response.

I think caring about driver phasing “must be” of high consideration to achieve the goal described in the this post. And I’ll bet it does make its way into the ratings if smooth polar transition is considered. I’m not sure about diffraction effects showing up in measurements since I don’t know whether I’ve ever seen it referred to specifically in evaluations of measurements.

 

[Duke]

In addition to minimizing resonances and colorations:

Abrupt discontinuities on the front baffle (including in any horn or waveguide if applicable) tend to generate their own localization cues which can betray the enclosure's presence. Imo sharp cabinet edges can be especially detrimental, and imo they should be avoided. Aggressive pattern control, i.e. a sufficiently narrow pattern to "miss" the cabinet edges, is one way of "avoiding" them.

Sufficiently large round-overs and bevels are also effective ways to avoid detrimental reflections at the cabinet's edges. Imo "sufficiently large" in this context would be at least a 2-inch radius round-over, so in many cases a bevel is more practical. In the absence of adequate cabinet edge geometry, narrow speakers seem to me to be more likely to "disappear" than wide ones.

My observation has been that multi-directional speakers tend to be less apparent as the sound source than conventional monopole speakers.

 

[Bob from Florida]

What makes speakers "disappear"?
And can it be measured ?

Facebook Marketplace can make them disappear.

 

[Jim Taylor]

What makes speakers "disappear"?

Leaving your front door unlocked.

Jim

 

[robh36062]

The divorce!

Rob