Not sure if you are responding to my post. But playing both speakers in my example is mono. Sitting off-axis, in this case in front of the left speaker, would reveal the left speaker position. But I still have the phantom image between the speakers.
-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
What makes speakers "disappear " and can it be measured?
- Thread starter Pearljam5000
- Start date
Tim Link
Addicted to Fun and Learning
One way I've experienced speakers seeming to disappear even when the sound is coming from the direction of one speaker is when the speakers are moved forward off the front wall a good distance and the sound seems to be coming from well behind the speaker position. When it's working I can look right at the speaker but I get the impression it is not at all involved with the sound. With corner placed speakers this effect is difficult because in all cases when I can see the wall in front of me I have a very difficult time imagining any sound coming from a point further out than that. My brain just says it can't be. If I close my eyes it can work, but then I can't see the speaker anyways so it can't "disappear." This might also work if the sound somehow seemed to be coming from a point ahead of the speaker. I've never experienced this effect in any of my systems. Maybe something like BACCH for Mac could create that effect in a well damped room. So no, I don't think a mono recording is required or even optimal for the disappearing effect. It might be able to do the trick in some cases though.
Last edited:
There is a nice video on YouTube which actually plays from outside the left speaker through various positions to just outside the right speaker. I can localize sounds outside the speakers in that video.
The other thing is that there are few rare songs which do not mix sounds coming from the speakers or use the full soundstage width. They place all their instruments and sounds in a narrow soundstage near the center.
These songs are interesting. One is “Modern Man” by Arcade Fire. Another is “if you were here tonight” by Alexander O’Neal.
When your setup is correct and you listen to these songs there is a distinct center image and instruments around that center but never going too far to the left or right. If you look at your speakers while listening to these songs you feel like the speakers are simply decoration and that the sound is not coming from them at all. It will sound like there is a speaker array in front of you and that’s it. If the speakers are in your peripheral vision you will completely ignore them as a sound source and believe a center speaker array is playing the music.
The other thing is that there are few rare songs which do not mix sounds coming from the speakers or use the full soundstage width. They place all their instruments and sounds in a narrow soundstage near the center.
These songs are interesting. One is “Modern Man” by Arcade Fire. Another is “if you were here tonight” by Alexander O’Neal.
When your setup is correct and you listen to these songs there is a distinct center image and instruments around that center but never going too far to the left or right. If you look at your speakers while listening to these songs you feel like the speakers are simply decoration and that the sound is not coming from them at all. It will sound like there is a speaker array in front of you and that’s it. If the speakers are in your peripheral vision you will completely ignore them as a sound source and believe a center speaker array is playing the music.
I simply move my speakers into the closet when I want them to disappear.
Tim Link
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Best disappearing act speakers I ever had were a setup I made somewhat on accident while first experimenting with active crossovers. I had some little 3/4" dome tweeters, some 2" dome midranges, and speakers with 5" woofers used for the midbass, and a subwoofer in the middle of the room. The drivers weren't stacked on top of each other but were set horizontally on top my TV, with the tweeters inboard almost right next to each other, then the 2" midranges about a foot outboard of each tweeter, and then the 5" woofer speakers out on their own stands a few feet further out. I used 48db/octave filters because the active could do that, adjusted them quickly with pink noise and a spectrum analyzer and had a listen. That arrangement created very convincing effects of different sounds coming from all over the room and seemingly totally disconnected from any of the drivers. I remember a sound of the conductor tapping his baton and turning the music page was absolutely startlingly like someone was really doing that in the room. Even the cat seemed very interested in the area near the wall where the sound seemed to be happening. It really sounded good and I left it setup for a week just to make sure I wasn't having one of those magic moments. When I stacked the drivers vertically it just sounded like plain old boring stereo. Good but no "spooky" effects. I may have to revisit the horizontal spread out driver arrangement again some day. I meant to experiment further with that but my speaker building friend at the time who I was going to have build the experimental hardware for me talked me into building giant corner horns instead.
Andysu
Major Contributor
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2019
- Messages
- 4,001
- Likes
- 2,189
you are yourself a voice speaker . not sure which brand model you are ? but you are a voice speaker . you can to small degree mimic sounds .
I haven't a clue what you just said?
Was it supposed to be a comical statement?
Agree with previous poster. Translate please.
I would appreciate some comments about the location of voice. It should not happen; the nearest speaker should be dominant in the mono case, i.e. both left and mono voice calling should sound to come from the same location in space. Or does it not? What do you say? Headphones must be used.
Last edited:
dasdoing
Major Contributor
Yes, know that. The example I give is however in the order of 3ms (!) delay. That is why I ask about the impression. Closest speaker should dominate totally with respect to localisation of sound source and amplitude differences are not that large.
I suspect that there are more factors such as the direct:reflected sound ratio.
Last edited:
@Thomas_A, don't you think it's important that you provide the information that your speakers are crossed with an extreme toe-in, where the right speaker is pointing (maybe) straight at you when you are sitting straight in front of the left speaker?
The reason the phantom-centered "mono" sound seems to come from a point somewhere in the middle of the stereo field in your recording, is probably caused by the higher energy of sound containing more of the presence frequencies, which are beaming straight at you from the right speaker. It's the same rules as for panning in recordings, where the stronger side of two identical sounds pulls the sound object closer to that side. As you now noticed, it's also highly frequency dependent.
The reason the phantom-centered "mono" sound seems to come from a point somewhere in the middle of the stereo field in your recording, is probably caused by the higher energy of sound containing more of the presence frequencies, which are beaming straight at you from the right speaker. It's the same rules as for panning in recordings, where the stronger side of two identical sounds pulls the sound object closer to that side. As you now noticed, it's also highly frequency dependent.
Well the pink noise spectrum is there to see as well. There are no 10-15 dB differences at ”ILD” freq > 3 kHz but tilted at bit to HF as I also provided to listen to. Intensity to time trading may work better for directional speakers. Not the case here. I just want the impressions, that’s all. One persons impression makes no statistics…
Last edited:
I found this video on YouTube:
I tested it with my setup which has acoustic panels behind the speakers.
I needed to dial in 0.38ms Time of Flight delay on the right monitor to get it to work perfectly.
As he says in the video make sure the first, center and 9th tones are accurate. I can clearly localize the 1st and 9th tones outside the boundaries of the speakers.
So clearly phase differences can signal to the ears/brain that a sound is coming from beyond the “stereo stage”.
I got to 0.38ms delay by trial and error. When I got the video to sound correctly the imaging was incredible and the sound extremely realistic.
If my math is correct 1ms is 0.33m difference in speaker distance. The Genelec Grade report states that even 1ms error here will collapse the soundstage. I have found that to be true. At 0.38ms that works out to 3.7” which is a reasonable difference especially given my asymmetrical room.
Level differences also should be corrected but it surprised me how much more important the TOF delay was to getting the imaging perfect.
I tested it with my setup which has acoustic panels behind the speakers.
I needed to dial in 0.38ms Time of Flight delay on the right monitor to get it to work perfectly.
As he says in the video make sure the first, center and 9th tones are accurate. I can clearly localize the 1st and 9th tones outside the boundaries of the speakers.
So clearly phase differences can signal to the ears/brain that a sound is coming from beyond the “stereo stage”.
I got to 0.38ms delay by trial and error. When I got the video to sound correctly the imaging was incredible and the sound extremely realistic.
If my math is correct 1ms is 0.33m difference in speaker distance. The Genelec Grade report states that even 1ms error here will collapse the soundstage. I have found that to be true. At 0.38ms that works out to 3.7” which is a reasonable difference especially given my asymmetrical room.
Level differences also should be corrected but it surprised me how much more important the TOF delay was to getting the imaging perfect.
In order to keep the above on topic which I forgot to mention. The first and 9th sounds show very clearly without any doubt the capability of good old fashioned stereo to play sounds outside the speaker positions. It’s very clear that those are coming from far outside.
dasdoing
Major Contributor
it's actualy a phase "trick" using the haas effect. I can hear it outside with imagination
posvibes
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2020
- Messages
- 385
- Likes
- 530
I will have to go back and find the tracks, but it always seemed to me that Wynton Marsalis recordings often but not always had passages of music that seemed to be engineered very much so, that they would stay in the speaker box and not even get beyond the box. I noticed this in a number of speakers I used with much the same effect. It kinda freaked me out a tiny bit, such a strange sensation.
I don’t need to use imagination. Sounds 1 and 9 clearly come from outside the speaker boundaries. I’ve treated my room heavily and have experimented with left right delay until it was perfect.
In fact most mixes I listen to now it seems like the speakers are merely decorative pieces in the room.
dasdoing
Major Contributor
What I mean is that ilusion works as long as I don't concentrate on the speaker. I have all first reflection point treated. 2-8 are all very precisly positioned here, 1 and 9 are not that precise
Similar threads
