What is it about McIntosh?

[KozmoNaut]

As someone also from the borderland of "millenial"/"gen-X" and comfortable with most tools, I think it's mostly because you could save a lot of money with DIY back in the day. You could get TVs in kit form, and get more for less. No really so today, where DIY is mostly a "because I can" thing.

Electronics today are so complex that it doesn't really make sense to DIY them from the ground. On the flip side, things like the Raspberry Pi have made it possible to do whole new categories of DIY projects.

 

[Sal1950]

Oh how times have changed,

 

[anmpr1]

If it's not a kit and therefore cheaper than expected, is the ST-70 really that great of an amp?

I've always been under the impression that it's cult status was sort of like a muscle car: good value for money, not necessarily good in an absolute sense.

For example, I've never heard anyone say that Dynaco amps were better than McIntosh or Audio Research.

The ST-70 was a great amplifier in its day. It was simple to build, and didn't cost much to buy or maintain. It offered enough power to drive most contemporary speakers, offering specs comparable to pretty much anything out there, at or exceeding its price point.

By the time less sensitive acoustic suspension speakers became mainstream, Dyna tubes were pushing their limits; however by the mid to late '60, solid state gear was becoming more prevalent in the marketplace and that portended the end of the machine (and others like it). That said, I've read the ST-70 holds the all-time sales record for amplifiers. The figure that's bandied about is 400,000 sold over its lifetime.

Of course no one (except perhaps David Hafler) ever claimed that it was 'better' than a McIntosh or Marantz (AR came after, and actually began business modding Dyna gear). Today, it exists an a hobby horse. Something to play around with. Antique kit gear used to be cheap, but because of tube nostalgia and a general aesthetic appeal attached to old stuff, used prices have risen. But that's not just Dyan... Eico, Scott, et. al. share the same market.

 

[anmpr1]

"Kids these days" is a complaint as old as time, and it's about as nonsensical as it has always been.

Young people today have just as many projects going on as any other generation, the amount of DIY and craft videos on YouTube should be all the proof you need.

I have no idea what youth are building, these days. In the '50s, and even '60s, if you wanted an amplifier and didn't have much money you had to build it yourself. It was cheaper doing that, because either you built it, or someone in a factory did, on an assembly line. Back then, nothing was stamped out by a factory in Shenzhen by the tens of thousands.

For kids today, my guess (I really don't know) is that music-wise it's whatever they download to their phone. How can you build a cell phone?

Cars? We used to work on cars. I remember installing a Hurst shifter on an old Pontiac GTO during summer vacation. LOL You really can't do that anymore, without specialized tools and electronic gear. I don't even know if kids still like cars. But you needed a car, or you couldn't get a girlfriend, back then.

So just what the hell are kids today building? What are their projects? I honestly don't know.

 

[Willem]

In my country kids never had cars, and they still don't. My children have decent audio systems with real speakers, but in this day and age those are bought (by me) ready to go. My children are students in their early twenties, play a lot of sports and are active in various social activities as sport club governor or student union representative. Their lives are very busy and I think fulfilling.
To come back to the thread: no MacIntosh gear for them. When I was a young student MacIntosh as an American brand was prohibitively expensive in Europe. When, as a student, I was looking for my first good amplifier, I had a choice between Quad, Luxman and Sony. I bought the Quad 33/303 because I wanted to get the Quad ELS57s (and I did, a few years later).

 

[KozmoNaut]

So just what the hell are kids today building? What are their projects? I honestly don't know.

Just check out the Maker movement. People of all ages are doing DIY projects, woodworking, costumes (cosplay is huge with movie/comic/game fans). There are makerspaces/hackerspaces popping up all over the world, you and I would probably know them as workshops or by some other word. People come together and share tools and experience, they combine old-school tools with modern ones like 3D printing and CAD/CAM design, which is inexpensively available to ordinary people these days.

You can automate your whole house with inexpensive modules and hardware and write your own software to glue it all together. DIYing something based on a RaspPi or Arduino is no less DIY than soldering your own circuit.

Don't forget programming, the entire open source/free software community is one huge conglomeration of mostly DIY hobby projects, shared with the world. It may not be as outwardly visible as modifying a car, but it's every bit as involved. And the kids are still modifying cars, you know ;-)

Anyone who claims DIY is dead, simply hasn't been following along

 

[Percheron]

Re: The ST-70 comments. As an owner of an st-70 clone, would the quality of the components be a deciding factor in whether or not it’s “as good as” another brand? If McIntosh, for example, used the circuit design and built it “their way”, would it be as good as any other McIntosh? Or is it the circuit design itself that is the deciding factor?

My amp was built by a guy who also built my guitar amp. He uses top shelf components, hand soldered on peg board. Is it as good as a $8000 amp? Not the ones I’ve heard, but those were also using $2000 DACs, $4000 preamps and the like.

 

[anmpr1]

Re: The ST-70 comments. As an owner of an st-70 clone, would the quality of the components be a deciding factor in whether or not it’s “as good as” another brand? If McIntosh, for example, used the circuit design and built it “their way”, would it be as good as any other McIntosh? Or is it the circuit design itself that is the deciding factor?

My amp was built by a guy who also built my guitar amp. He uses top shelf components, hand soldered on peg board. Is it as good as a $8000 amp? Not the ones I’ve heard, but those were also using $2000 DACs, $4000 preamps and the like.

When you ask about 'as good as' you have to first determine criteria. As I recall, both McIntosh and Marantz units had better metal work than Dyna. I never owned them, but that was my impression. Original Dyna chassis were thin, and over the years most have pitted and corroded. Of course, they were not 'made to last' in that sense. I doubt David Hafler ever thought about whether his amps would still be important to people, 60 years on. I think if they were properly stored in a good environment they would have fared better, however a lot of them wound up in basements, attics and garages.

Bias settings on Dyna gear was a clever kludge, using a D Battery to measure and set values. Bias was set for the pair of EL-34s together, which was not optimal, but pretty good. Marantz offered a front panel meter, and you could individually bias each tube. McIntosh used a fixed bias circuit.

I personally don't see how any tube amplifier could be worth the figures you are quoting. Other than perhaps the hand-made stuff from Bob Carver. His creations are frankly quite beautiful, quite powerful (for tubes), and knowing Bob's history, my guess is that they are well engineered, in his usual 'trickster' way. But value in dollars is an individual thing. YMMV.

Old Marantz and McIntosh retain value because of historical reasons. Old Dyna retains value because they are useful to hobbyists who like to tinker with them. No one 'tinkers' with a museum quality Marantz or McIntosh, since that would likely lower their collectable value considerably.

 

[DKT88]

So just what the hell are kids today building? What are their projects? I honestly don't know.

I've seen them building gaming computers. Overclocking, water cooling. No soldering involved.

 

[markc2]

Finally got a MC275V which now seems like a long time ago. I enjoy looking at it every day, along with listening to it almost every day. I listened to a LOT of audio stuff before buying that amp, is there better, yes, but it costs a lot more than my humble MC275V. It felt like I was buying something really special, I had never had tubes before and to see them glow (especially new tubes with that blue light coming from within is beautiful. Learning about tubes was a really cool ball of wax Thanks Neil!

Love Dynaco as well! Have a Pas 3x that some times does pre-amp duty with the mc275V.

Why do I like mine, because the "meat on the bones" feel to the sounds, harmonically rich, a "roundness" to the sound that gives a sense of real people playing in front of you. It can also kick butt for 75 watts, well 85-90 in the real world and it's wonderful for Jazz, Rock, Classical and New Age from time to time.

To me the best stuff makes you feel as if a band is playing in front of you, a sense of interaction among the musicians, of nothing missing or nothing to distract you from the event, and when it's done you could clap for the performance in front of you. I can think of a few systems that I've heard that have achieved that goal. One of them was a McIntosh system, not mine, but knowing they could do that, made me want a piece of that pie.

 

[MediumRare]

In my testing, the autoformers were useful for increasing current into low impedance loads while not increasing output stage dissipation. Likewise, they were useful for increasing voltage swing into high impedance loads. Bandwidth was good, distortion was low. I’d call it a good design for the intended application.

I have speakers with impedance that dips to 2-3 ohms and the tri-wiring on my Mac integrated is fantastic. Handles the power surges up to 400 w with no effort at all, even though the official rating is 200 w. In other words, Mac gear with an autoformer does not double output as speaker impedance halves, but it provides 100% headroom for transients and bursts - at any impedance. Also, there is a "soft clipping" protection so the unit never exceeds 2% THD at any power and doesn't have to shut down in protection mode either.

 

[anmpr1]

I found this review while slumming. Not at an 'audiophile' site, but what appears to be a general consumer electronics review outfit. I was surprised at the rating. 2.5 out of 5 stars for what appears to be a streaming amplified speaker. I had to laugh and shake my head. McIntosh wants three thousand dollars for it, yet the sound was judged to be totally substandard, not as good as a $180.00 speaker.

https://www.techhive.com/article/3452520/mcintosh-rs200-review.html

 

[Sal1950]

McIntosh wants three thousand dollars for it, yet the sound was judged to be totally substandard, not as good as a $180.00 speaker.

But it's got the purdy blue meters.

 

[MediumRare]

I found this review while slumming. Not at an 'audiophile' site, but what appears to be a general consumer electronics review outfit. I was surprised at the rating. 2.5 out of 5 stars for what appears to be a streaming amplified speaker. I had to laugh and shake my head. McIntosh wants three thousand dollars for it, yet the sound was judged to be totally substandard, not as good as a $180.00 speaker.

https://www.techhive.com/article/3452520/mcintosh-rs200-review.html

It's kind of a shame how McIntosh is expanding into more masstige consumer-oriented product like this active soundbar. It tarnishes their reputation with the true high-end consumer. But that's a common story with prestige brands owned by corporate masters.

 

[Sal1950]

Other than perhaps the hand-made stuff from Bob Carver. His creations are frankly quite beautiful, quite powerful (for tubes), and knowing Bob's history, my guess is that they are well engineered, in his usual 'trickster' way. But value in dollars is an individual thing. YMMV.

As I think back over the last 50 years of audio, Bob Carver has worked at a near genius level in both gear design and marketing. I've owned a few pieces and they have set levels of performance and answered market needs at a time when no one else was doing the same.
The 400 and 700 amps brought high power to solid state when almost no one else was doing the same at a price level that could be afforded by the working man. His 1000 and 4000 preamps brought noise reduction and dynamic range expansion to a vinyl and tape playback market that was in need of some help in it's day. The M400t cube amp was ahead of its time in high tech, highly efficient power that lead the way for all the Class D amps we enjoy today, and were also voiced with some "magic dust" to sound like expensive tube amps of the time.
Today he's building a line of tube amps that in many ways are amazing. The Crimson 275 brings a stereo 75wpc to market with a beautifully made and finished chassis and transformers. The whole thing including tubes is guaranteed for 5 years and mostly hand wired in the cool old fashion way. All that for a very reasonable $2750.
I have just hit on a few points but when you think back over the years Bob has brought us some very cool gear over the years. It may not have been SOTA but it WAS unique and mostly offered some things no one else was doing. If you want a good giggle go back and read the Carver Challenge at Stereophile. I think that's the most fun I had reading Stereophile in all their years of publishing.
Thanks Bob for being the very special thinking individual you are.

 

[digicidal]

Although I truly can't imagine actually dropping close to $2K on a gimmick clock... I have to say it's appealing in some ways (I just think it's a sad commentary on the brand at the same time):

 

[Sal1950]

Although I truly can't imagine actually dropping close to $2K on a gimmick clock... I have to say it's appealing in some ways (I just think it's a sad commentary on the brand at the same time):

Oh hell yea, If I had a big stack of Mac gear I'd have to put one of them in the middle. LOL

 

[anmpr1]

As I think back over the last 50 years of audio, Bob Carver has worked at a near genius level in both gear design and marketing. I've owned a few pieces and they have set levels of performance and answered market needs at a time when no one else was doing the same.

If you want a good giggle go back and read the Carver Challenge at Stereophile. I think that's the most fun I had reading Stereophile in all their years of publishing.

Bob Carver was always an innovator. Stereophile treated him downright shoddy. After they admitted he could do what he claimed he could, they immediately felt heat from high-end manufacturers who recognized that what he was doing was 'bad for (their) business', and also realized that ad revenue was now possibly compromised. Editorially, they understood that few would buy their crummy magazine if what Carver demonstrated (and more importantly, subsequently manufactured) was, in fact, the case.

Stereophile quickly figured out which side of the toast was buttered, repented their momentary lack of judgement, and began rectification. The only way out was to activate damage control Plan 9. In likely the worst example of opportunistic backsliding (at least the worst example in recent memory), they drug out Bob Harley, who penned a scathing review of one of Carver's 'cloned' amps, ridiculing it. Badly ridiculing it. Even though Stereophile found the amp to be less than transparent, what the magazine was doing was all too transparent. They were attempting to ruin Bob's reputation and business, all for making them look like the fools they were. Pathetic.

The fact that Bob appears to have left it all behind him, demonstrates that he is not only a competent designer (he'd never put his name on something as idiotic as that Pass 7 watt Class A toy), but a gentleman.

Not only that, but he is realistic. He admits that he can't tell the difference between his SS and tubes, but prefers his tubes because of the soft glow. At the same time, as a businessman, he recognizes that if that's what folks want, he'll sell that. And at his top end, in return for your many dollars (but dollars proportional to what you'll get in return), you'll own what is likely the most beautiful, electrically sophisticated and powerful tube amp you can buy. With Carver, you can eat your cake and have it too.

 

[anmpr1]

Although I truly can't imagine actually dropping close to $2K on a gimmick clock... I have to say it's appealing in some ways (I just think it's a sad commentary on the brand at the same time):

Unlike some of their other products, at least with the McClock, you can be totally certain that it will be correct, at least twice during the day.

 

[anmpr1]

Can anyone imagine Gordon Gow suggesting to Frank McIntosh that the company build a tube based integrated record player? Anyone?

This shows you how far McIntosh has strayed from their glorious heritage. In the latest News from the Moronosphere we have the McIntosh tube turntable. I wish I was kidding, but I'm not. My only question is not why they did something so idiotic, but why didn't they put blue meters on it? I mean, green tubes are OK. Has that Borg-Matrix sort of look. But the faithful really like blue meters.