Wharfedale Denton 80th Anniversary Speaker Review

[regan]

Also I think he was amongst the few (if not the only one) that gave the Lintons a bad review.

 

[DSJR]

Also I think he was amongst the few (if not the only one) that gave the Lintons a bad review.

Wouldn't he do that so he could flog an 'upgrade kit' maybe?

 

[ROOSKIE]

If you compare Amir's to the GR measures, you can find some similarities. but Danny's myopic scaling and over smoothing make this more difficult. His initial on-axis measure shows a major level matching issue with the tweeter (Amir's does not). In true Danny fashion, he does not question whether he has a broken/defective unit, he just proceeds with his upgrade. However, his initial crossover measure looks way worse than I would expect from Wharfedale and the Denton has a rather substantial crossover. He does not measure the crossover components, does he? I do not think have ever seen one of his videos where he does check the crossover parts. He simply skips a basic diagnostic step that any junior tech would do.

I know you know this, but for those who don't. Unfortunately to check the crossover components it would have to be fully dismantled. That might be an issue with a user submission.
The response issue exists with the individual RAW drivers mounted in cabinet(no crossover involved) drivers+cabinet only. Therefore I'm leaning into a possible well out of spec woofer. I would also find it had to imagine anything with the crossover increasing the effective woofer sensitivity and peaking by so much.
I wish he had published an impedance trace pre-mod, that could offer some clues.

So, it is certainly possible his was defective or at least using drivers(or x-over components)well out of tolerance. That said, to my eye his measured, completed speaker response tracks very well with the Klipple except the woofer is about 5db hotter relative across. All the other deviations match well. As a wanna be speaker designer myself, I don't mind his zoomed in scale as it illustrates the deviations well in the context of a teardown video. The 1/3 octave smoothing is okay but maybe he could use 1/6 or 1/12 to show a few more deviations up top. Really though 1/3 is fine for me for a basic investigation. Don't get me wrong, the Klippel is king and I appreciate the high resolution and high accuracy of that machine, it just isn't the minimum that provides value.

If anyone out there did this mod I'd be curious what your set measures like.

Often I pull drivers and photograph and measure raw drivers and the speakers to some degree or another for my hobby records. Unfortunately I did not do any of this with these. That said, I am pretty sure these are really, really, really cheap drivers. That can be fine as the sum of the parts is important, (think JBL 305/6p ----->those are some cheap drivers) but you also likely deal with a larger % of products and components not to spec.

Here are screen shots of Danny's Measurements so folks do not have to watch the whole video and be tempted to buy.
--------

Also I think he was amongst the few (if not the only one) that gave the Lintons a bad review.

Wouldn't he do that so he could flog an 'upgrade kit' maybe?

I'm sure he does want to sell an upgrade kit with those tube connectors. That said, whatever you feel about D, keep in mind that these are sent in by people who are commissioning him to upgrade the unit. So it is something he was tasked with doing.

I felt the Linton had warm/maybe flabby fleshy bass. I did use the grills as the data recomended and still felt they sounded meh through the mids and treble. I didn't really love them though I always say 'I see the appeal'.

They are basically a decent $500, 5.25" 2way strapped to a serviceable 8" woofer tuned warm with a wide baffel that also warms up the sound in room compared to slim units. They look cool and they sound fine. I don't know? I think they were hyped a bit. I'd rather do something else, just my 2cents. If you own and love, totally get it.

Same as above, if anyone out there did this mod I'd be curious what your set measures like.

 

[beagleman]

I know you know this, but for those who don't. Unfortunately to check the crossover components it would have to be fully dismantled. That might be an issue with a user submission.
The response issue exists with the individual RAW drivers mounted in cabinet(no crossover involved) drivers+cabinet only. Therefore I'm leaning into a possible well out of spec woofer. I would also find it had to imagine anything with the crossover increasing the effective woofer sensitivity and peaking by so much.
I wish he had published an impedance trace pre-mod, that could offer some clues.

So, it is certainly possible his was defective or at least using drivers(or x-over components)well out of tolerance. That said, to my eye his measured, completed speaker response tracks very well with the Klipple except the woofer is about 5db hotter relative across. All the other deviations match well. As a wanna be speaker designer myself, I don't mind his zoomed in scale as it illustrates the deviations well in the context of a teardown video. The 1/3 octave smoothing is okay but maybe he could use 1/6 or 1/12 to show a few more deviations up top. Really though 1/3 is fine for me for a basic investigation. Don't get me wrong, the Klippel is king and I appreciate the high resolution and high accuracy of that machine, it just isn't the minimum that provides value.

If anyone out there did this mod I'd be curious what your set measures like.

Often I pull drivers and photograph and measure raw drivers and the speakers to some degree or another for my hobby records. Unfortunately I did not do any of this with these. That said, I am pretty sure these are really, really, really cheap drivers. That can be fine as the sum of the parts is important, (think JBL 305/6p ----->those are some cheap drivers) but you also likely deal with a larger % of products and components not to spec.

Here are screen shots of Danny's Measurements so folks do not have to watch the whole video and be tempted to buy.
-------- View attachment 347105


View attachment 347096View attachment 347097



I'm sure he does want to sell an upgrade kit with those tube connectors. That said, whatever you feel about D, keep in mind that these are sent in by people who are commissioning him to upgrade the unit. So it is something he was tasked with doing.

I felt the Linton had warm/maybe flabby fleshy bass. I did use the grills as the data recomended and still felt they sounded meh through the mids and treble. I didn't really love them though I always say 'I see the appeal'.

They are basically a decent $500, 5.25" 2way strapped to a serviceable 8" woofer tuned warm with a wide baffel that also warms up the sound in room compared to slim units. They look cool and they sound fine. I don't know? I think they were hyped a bit. I'd rather do something else, just my 2cents. If you own and love, totally get it.

Same as above, if anyone out there did this mod I'd be curious what your set measures like.

I find it quite "Odd" how Danny at times can get woofers to play at such high levels with one watt.

Just the "On axis" response of the Entire speaker has the woofer at 89-92db and these are simply not that efficient.

I would think more along the lines of 85-87 at most, but somehow he gets a few speakers where a mid efficiency woofer is putting out some unusual levels...

 

[DOuG pRATt]

My main speakers, going back 50 years to freshman year college, have been the Dynaco A25, Allison 3, Large Advent 25th Anniversary Edition, and the Wharfedale Denton 80th Anniversary Edition. I still have all of these speakers, along with some others. The Allisons, which are no longer performing at their best, are the definition of outstanding, natural sounding speakers. The Dentons, that I have owned for almost nine years, may not have a neutral sound, but I enjoy listening to them very much. Testing the Denton without the grill was, in my opinion, a mistake.

 

[DOuG pRATt]

@amirm
I have to add.....
Note that there is an "85th" anniversary version of the same speaker which uses a different tweeter. Wonder if every 5 years they are going to produce a different version!

80th anniversary has a 5" woofer

The 85th has a 6.5" woofer and a different tweeter.

And a somewhat larger box, making it a completely different speaker from the 80th.

 

[DOuG pRATt]

I have zero experience with any Wharfedale speaker, but I've seen this phrase in lots of places and want to know what the heck does "fun to listen to" mean anyway? I've heard loads of speakers in my day and have never thought this about any of them. "Sounds good", "Sounds bad", well sure. Lots of music is "fun to listen to", but speakers???? Just don't get it...

I had these briefly years ago because I wanted "warm" sound. I found them to be uneven and fatiguing. Seeing these measurements helps me understand now why I disliked them so much.

"Fatiguing" is exactly the opposite of my opinion of the Denton 80.

 

[DOuG pRATt]

Yes, I'm using this Denton 80th speakers in my office as decoration.
Not good for critical listening but playing bgm it's okay.

Exactly. Not ideal for critical listening. That's where the "fun" aspect comes in.

 

[AuricGoldfinger]

In true Danny fashion, he does not question whether he has a broken/defective unit, he just proceeds with his upgrade. However, his initial crossover measure looks way worse than I would expect from Wharfedale and the Denton has a rather substantial crossover. He does not measure the crossover components, does he? I do not think have ever seen one of his videos where he does check the crossover parts. He simply skips a basic diagnostic step that any junior tech would do.

That’s the heart of the problem.

One can rarely be certain whether the speakers used for the design study were correct or not, but in Danny’s case he has surely “upgraded” a fully defective pair of speakers in the past. In that situation and given the odd behavior of the drivers, one would normally search for other existing measurements. Then, he offered an expensive upgrade kit based on said defective speakers, using an incorrect measurement axis not originally intended by that design, crippling its original impulse alignment.

 

[senuc]

I have one , when I use it without sub , sound not good, but when I use it with sub ( 130hz , 24db/oct ) , it sound good, why I bought it? because in China it is very cheap ,about 200 usd mint condition

 

[beagleman]

Also I think he was amongst the few (if not the only one) that gave the Lintons a bad review.

Here is PART of something the actual Designer, Peter Comeau said recently about measurements etc. There is far more, but this section addresses the topic of your post...

"Frequency response: Frequency response in axis at 1m doesn’t give you any clue as to how a speaker sounds. The ear/brain system is much more critical of temporal performance and whether the harmonic structure of an impulse is correct/realistic than it is of 3dB changes in frequency level. Also, how you make these measurements is critical. Making a gated response in-room, like GR Research, is prone to huge errors. Compare its results to the Stereophile and Erin’s Audio Corner reviews. Erin and Stereophile accord to the measurements I make as a designer. Nuff said."

 

[Rick Sykora]

That’s the heart of the problem.

One can rarely be certain whether the speakers used for the design study were correct or not, but in Danny’s case he has surely “upgraded” a fully defective pair of speakers in the past. In that situation and given the odd behavior of the drivers, one would normally search for other existing measurements. Then, he offered an expensive upgrade kit based on said defective speakers, using an incorrect measurement axis not originally intended by that design, crippling its original impulse alignment.

Will add that Danny generally does not seek manufacturer's input for baseline comparison or to allow feedback on his measurements.

 

[ROOSKIE]

Here is PART of something the actual Designer, Peter Comeau said recently about measurements etc. There is far more, but this section addresses the idea of your post...

"Frequency response: Frequency response in axis at 1m doesn’t give you any clue as to how a speaker sounds. The ear/brain system is much more critical of temporal performance and whether the harmonic structure of an impulse is correct/realistic than it is of 3dB changes in frequency level. Also, how you make these measurements is critical. Making a gated response in-room, like GR Research, is prone to huge errors. Compare its results to the Stereophile and Erin’s Audio Corner reviews. Erin and Stereophile accord to the measurements I make as a designer. Nuff said."

Howdy @beagleman see post #15 https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/wharfedale-linton-85-crossover-upgrade.407315/
Here is a link to the complete quote provided you, you implied more good info is in it.
To be fair, most of the quote is about possibly upgrading crossover parts like sandcast resistors and push on connectors, not measurements.

I actually don't know what measurement space Peter has, is it a Klippel, a chamber or something else? (He doesn't say there. I would expect him to have something great. That said, we can't qualify which measurements match his unless we have a general sense of how accurate his are.)
Stereophile uses gated measurements and generally should not be equaled with the Klippel --ever. Everyone without an anechoic chamber and/or a Klippel system is slogging through gated 'in room/or backyard/gym' measurements. I do think GRs measurements match Erin well above 500-600hrz. Below he should be splicing close Mic as it seems he is getting extra output. I do not think he does that. * see note below
There is general variation here and there but close enough that interpretation is similar. The biggest difference was average sensitivity. Erin's is notably lower vs Stereophile and GR.
Measurements vary even with calibrated mics. Speaker tolerances vary often and even by several db. The design axis may also be interpreted differently.

Peter Comeau clearly has design chops and has been gainfully employed as a designer for quite awhile, so I am not poo-pooing him. What he said sounds smart though would contradict the product concealed research of Harman/Toole/Olive/Geddes and other researchers. The ones who typically are ASR mentors.
"The ear/brain system is much more critical of temporal performance and whether the harmonic structure of an impulse is correct/realistic than it is of 3dB changes in frequency level."
This is a bit of a mouthful and would seem a contradiction of the fundamental blind research published in Toole's book (and elsewhere). Is that a problem? Idk? The whole SPIN is based on a different value structure from what Peter said.

He is part of Wharfedales marketing team and likely a proud artist. He seems to love design and is passionate with all that entails. He will justify his approach which may or may not be 100% awesome & it doesn't need to be. Almost always, some compromise is made to produce anything.
Fwiw the designer, while talented, comes off to me in a not very dissimilar fashion from Danny of GR, just saying it. I mean bragging about tuning by ear and hundreds of crossover variations and being a golden ear, yah know AXPONA swag.

*Bear in mind the wide baffle of the Linton will affect in room sound differently from a narrow baffle as it shifts from 2pi to 4pi at a much lower frequency. IT MAY therefore be hard to fully assess the in room upper bass and lower mid experience if you are used to doing so with narrow designs. I don't think the Linton sounded quite as neutral from 300hrz down like what the Klippel SPIN calculated. Just 2cents from a peon.

I realize this is a Denton 80th thread but I think this info still applies here.

 

[DOuG pRATt]

The Denton 80 that was tested has a "Made in China" tag. My pair is from an earlier production run, without the additional notice. I bought a second pair later, intended as a retirement present for a friend who hasn't retired yet. It has "Made in China" on the back, and I've compared the two pairs.

The second set of Dentons sounds a bit brighter than the first. It could be a normal manufacturing variation, or perhaps comments about the Denton's sound led to a crossover change. Both pairs sound better to me with the grill in place. I don't know if the Tungsten grill material has more of an effect on the sound than any other fabric.

I'm not at all surprised by Amir's test results. Other than quibbling about the grills, his testing is rigorous and the numbers are what they are. I've always known the Denton isn't accurate and revealing, and the bass can hardly be characterized as "tight." Vocals, it must be said, are lovely as presented by the Denton 80. They make everything sound good, and they look great. For some of us it's an appealing combination. The loudest I play the Dentons is 70 dB.

 

[Rick Sykora]

Wouldn't he do that so he could flog an 'upgrade kit' maybe?

Lol, the least of my complaints is that Danny actually tries to measure stuff!

It is the crappy value prop and the potential for bait and switch.

Here is the larger part of a crossover for Polk speaker he liked...

Here is his proposed upgrade....

It starts at a mere $830/pair before shipping. Please forgive the veer off-topic, but I did not want to give his latest video its own thread.

 

[DOuG pRATt]

As someone who owns and loves the Denton 80's, I'm very surprised and disappointed with these results, and am now questioning my own ears and tastes...

That being said, I still love them, and they are my favorite speakers under $600 (that I have heard). I know this is anecdotal, but I've known a couple of people who've owned both the Lintons and the Denton 80's -- one of them sold their Dentons after getting the Lintons, and misses them dearly. The other actually preferred the Dentons to the Lintons, not because they were subjectively better, but because they were just "more fun to listen to."

Anyway, thank you Amir for the measurements/review! I'll keep at least one pair of the Dentons, but starting to look for a suitable replacement in my main listening room. Maybe the Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1 V2's?

I totally respect Amir's testing. I miss the test reports in the audio magazines of the past, from 'Stereo Review' to 'High Fidelity' to 'Audio' and, when I had access to them in the 80's, the British publications. I subscribed to 'Stereophile' for a year or two, and gave up after the nonsense about green magic markers for CD's and the magical RF-absorbing brick. I rarely looked at The Absolute Sound. I have my own listening preferences, and my positive opinion of the Denton 80's enjoyable sound hasn't changed.

 

[woppinger]

As someone who owns and loves the Denton 80's, I'm very surprised and disappointed with these results, and am now questioning my own ears and tastes...

That being said, I still love them, and they are my favorite speakers under $600 (that I have heard). I know this is anecdotal, but I've known a couple of people who've owned both the Lintons and the Denton 80's -- one of them sold their Dentons after getting the Lintons, and misses them dearly. The other actually preferred the Dentons to the Lintons, not because they were subjectively better, but because they were just "more fun to listen to."

You are allowed to have your own experiences and opinions, you know, regardless of what some numbers and graphs on the internet say

(I have Denton 80s as well, in my home office listening setup, and enjoy them quite a bit - I'm sure they're not state of the art, or the best bang for the buck, but I certainly don't subjectively experience them as unpleasant, or especially "bright", which seemed to be a major conclusion of the review...I do listen with grilles on FWIW...)

 

[Miniyouuuu]

After Denton 80 we saw Denton 85 with 6,5”speaker. Now they’ll release the Super Denton, a 3 way shelve speaker:

 

[Miniyouuuu]

It’s crazy, because during Dovedale release (super Linton) we heard and view some examples of Aston speakers (premium denton model) but we never got that model,

and now they are presenting a 3 way Denton!

 

[Miniyouuuu]

Another Denton similar speaker from IAG group:
Leak Sandwich 150