Upgrading my Denon AVR and other questions

[quattro98]

I think the standard Audyssey calibration often leaves the bass sounding less than great (this does not account for your experience with Direct mode, for that you either need room treatment, tone controls, or new speakers).

I am not familiar with the Denon 2200, but I would make sure you turn on Dynamic EQ and maybe Dynamic Volume. This can help with the stock calibration settings. From there, you can turn your sub levels up a little, but that only helps with deep bass. I would also try a higher crossover point between your main speakers and the subwoofer.

You can also try a manual calibration with distances and levels and no EQ to skip Audyssey altogether. How does that sound?

With a newer receiver, you can use an iPhone/iPad app to tweak the Audyssey settings. This includes things like disabling midrange compensation, limiting EQ to lower frequencies (below 300-500 Hz), and tweaking the target curve to have more bass and mid bass. I find that a tweaked curve without the Dynamic EQ/Vol is fine.

‎Audyssey MultEQ Editor app

‎The latest Denon Marantz audio video products use Audyssey MultEQ for simple, accurate set-up calibration of your system to the room in which it’s used. But, now you can go further with the Audyssey MultEQ Editor app, going ‘under the hood’ to view and adjust settings for detailed tuning –...

apps.apple.com

Audyssey MultEQ Editor app - Apps on Google Play

Audyssey MultEQ Editor app for Denon Marantz AV Receiver products

play.google.com

 

[WaynesterUK]

I think the standard Audyssey calibration often leaves the bass sounding less than great (this does not account for your experience with Direct mode, for that you either need room treatment, tone controls, or new speakers).

I am not familiar with the Denon 2200, but I would make sure you turn on Dynamic EQ and maybe Dynamic Volume. This can help with the stock calibration settings. From there, you can turn your sub levels up a little, but that only helps with deep bass. I would also try a higher crossover point between your main speakers and the subwoofer.

You can also try a manual calibration with distances and levels and no EQ to skip Audyssey altogether. How does that sound?

With a newer receiver, you can use an iPhone/iPad app to tweak the Audyssey settings. This includes things like disabling midrange compensation, limiting EQ to lower frequencies (below 300-500 Hz), and tweaking the target curve to have more bass and mid bass. I find that a tweaked curve without the Dynamic EQ/Vol is fine.

‎Audyssey MultEQ Editor app

‎The latest Denon Marantz audio video products use Audyssey MultEQ for simple, accurate set-up calibration of your system to the room in which it’s used. But, now you can go further with the Audyssey MultEQ Editor app, going ‘under the hood’ to view and adjust settings for detailed tuning –...

apps.apple.com

Audyssey MultEQ Editor app - Apps on Google Play

Audyssey MultEQ Editor app for Denon Marantz AV Receiver products

play.google.com

Thanks for the advice everybody

I noticed a couple of people can be quite bitchy and sarcastic on here, just because I’m not as technical as some of you!! Life is a learning curve!
We’re not all “audiophiles”
Yes I’m a professional musician for a living, but that’s on a stage in front of thousands

I only wanted to upgrade my Denon AVR-X2200 because it’s classed as “Ancient” And to obviously achieve a better and fuller sound! which I’m certain an AVR upgrade would indeed do! plus.. I’d have more EQ and settings options with the newer Audyssey update, including the APP on my iPhone and more power, I also wanted to add an external amp with HT Bypass and get an identical 2nd subwoofer, along with Monitor Audio AMS Atmos speakers

Another thing, I’m harping on about Music CD’s sounding “thin” my Marantz CD63 MkII KI Signature is also old, but again it’s been rock solid, maybe an upgrade on this is also needed, to someat like a Marantz CD6007?

Anyway - I’ll make some changes when I move home

 

[yelloguy]

None of the upgrades you listed would give you a fuller sound until you get new speakers in. And when you do that, you will find that all your old gear works just as well with the new speakers. Your speakers are 90dB sensitive so its not like they are lacking in power.

You mention the bitchy audiophiles, but "AVR upgrades" and "external amps" are audiophile tropes that have been peddled for many years. I agree that removing mid-range compensation made a big difference in my set up. But it did not make my speakers go from thin to full sounding. Before I did the MRC change, I could actually enjoy my 2 front speakers in Pure Direct mode (albeit with a bit less bass - which is fine for 80% of the music out there) for hours. I have 3 way floor standing speakers that go down to 40Hz in specs and 35Hz in my room as measured by REW. You need to start with good speakers for music.

 

[WaynesterUK]

None of the upgrades you listed would give you a fuller sound until you get new speakers in. And when you do that, you will find that all your old gear works just as well with the new speakers. Your speakers are 90dB sensitive so its not like they are lacking in power.

You mention the bitchy audiophiles, but "AVR upgrades" and "external amps" are audiophile tropes that have been peddled for many years. I agree that removing mid-range compensation made a big difference in my set up. But it did not make my speakers go from thin to full sounding. Before I did the MRC change, I could actually enjoy my 2 front speakers in Pure Direct mode (albeit with a bit less bass - which is fine for 80% of the music out there) for hours. I have 3 way floor standing speakers that go down to 40Hz in specs and 35Hz in my room as measured by REW. You need to start with good speakers for music.

My speakers are GOOD !!!!!

 

[yelloguy]

lol. I'm sorry I didn't mean to come off as selling you new speakers. But I am confused by your description of speakers sounding like rubbish and laying the blame on your AVR.

 

[Golfx]

Try this

Audio Listening Test That Fooled the Hollywood Sapphire Group

Some of the most highly trained audiophiles in the industry were asked to do a blind “A-B” listening comparison test of two audio circuits. Were they able to hear a difference, or were they fooled?

www.audioholics.com

Talks about bias.

 

[Oddball]

My speakers are GOOD !!!!!

They are, but there are many better ones out there, unfortunately costing in the range from more to fortune. If you have your settings right, done the EQ to your preferences, and still no luck, then I would think you might need new speakers before new AVR to achieve your goals. Unfortunately, that might be a more substantial upgrade as you already have good speakers so I would think that if you want your endgame speakers it would be a couple of grand at least, and squeezing new AVR in the budget might be a stretch but not a huge one.

 

[quattro98]

My speakers are GOOD !!!!!

I would take any manufacturer specifications with a large grain of salt. At best, they aren't as complete as measurements obtained by more sophisticated testing. Far more commonly, they just aren't true.

I think that people's concern is that you don't like the sound when using direct mode. In this setting, most of the sound is determined by your speakers and your room. If you don't like the way your speakers sound in direct mode, then spending money on other things isn't going to help. In what context have you heard your speakers and thought they sounded good?

As an example, I listen to most music in a up mix mode in a 7.2.4 system. When I listen to a stereo recording in direct mode using only my L & R speakers, I like the sound fine.

Changing the CD player is not needed.

For the question of a different receiver/amplifier, can you borrow/demo a piece of equipment and try it at home? This gives you something to do, but it's really hard to know what sounds better in such a comparison. If you get a shiny new piece of equipment, especially if you just paid good money for it, then you're going to hear a change in your system whether it is real or not. It sounds strange, but this is how our senses, perception, and judgement works.

 

[WaynesterUK]

Okay.. an update !

Because I wanted a newer AV Receiver anyway
(someat more up to date)

a friend of mine at Richer Sounds here in the UK has had an 11 month old Denon AVC-X4700 just come in on a trade in deal! Cost was £725! Bargain!
So I’ll have lots more Audyssey options and more features with this new AVR

I have a potential buyer for my Denon 2200 for £215, so hopefully the new Denon has cost me a mere £510! not bad considering the 4700 model is normally around £1400!

I will be looking at upgrading my speakers as soon as, but this AVR deal was too good to turn down..
are there any speaker suggestions to beat my Monitor Audio Bronze 500’s?

My current Monitor Audio speaker setup was a steal when I bought this entire set, costing me £744 in total! Now.. to buy it would cost £1897!

 

[Oddball]

You would need to dig very deep into speaker upgrade options. Given the odds it will cost thousands, you should be careful with it and also look for the second hand market. I would not upgrade unless there is a clear and substantial benefit. Luke warm upgrades to squeeze things into budget are what usually happens but at the end is not the right solution. Sorry that I can't help with any prospective candidates for upgrade as have not been looking for speakers in that price range for many years.

 

[WaynesterUK]

You would need to dig very deep into speaker upgrade options. Given the odds it will cost thousands, you should be careful with it and also look for the second hand market. I would not upgrade unless there is a clear and substantial benefit. Luke warm upgrades to squeeze things into budget are what usually happens but at the end is not the right solution. Sorry that I can't help with any prospective candidates for upgrade as have not been looking for speakers in that price range for many years.

Yes.. I will definitely look into second hand speakers

 

[quattro98]

Okay.. an update !

Nice! Your room looks great. If you want to try something, gather as many thick pillows and blankets as you can and put them on the top edge of the sofa (so they're covering the wall behind your head). Does this change the sound at all?

 

[Chrispy]

I’ve attached my settings for my System, pretty sure it’s all good my end, currently listening to to a Music CD through the Denon, crystal clear but still lacks “fullness” I’ve tried Pure Direct Mode and then back to the AVR in Stereo, I’ve got the Marantz CD Player connected to back of the Denon using decent analogue cables, and it’s also connected via optical, I can switch between BOTH modes on the input assign.. sounds better (to me) using the Analogue option… suppose that’s normal?

Excuse me sitting down having my lunch

I doubt the difference in DAC accounts for the different experience, more likely simply a level difference between the two inputs. I certainly wouldn't consider it "normal" for a cd player's dac to be superior.

You also mentioned you can't adjust eq when playing discs, which may be true if using direct/pure direct mode on your Denon, otherwise you should have eq options.

 

[delta76]

I don’t need more power, just a more musical sound when listening to Music CD’s, which of course with my CD player connected directly to an AVR, clearly will be a bit rubbish

there is no such thing

 

[WaynesterUK]

there is no such thing

Your not a professional musician clearly

Save your sarcasm

 

[delta76]

Your not a professional musician clearly

Save your sarcasm

no i am not. but there is no such thing as musical sound. I did upgrade my AVR from x3400h to x4700h and to my ears they sound just the same on my Focal Aria 948. I absolutely like the upgraded features, but definitely not the sound.
If you expect your new AVR to sound "more musical", you will be disappointed. Or maybe not, but it's in your brain, not your ears.

 

[Chrispy]

Your not a professional musician clearly

Save your sarcasm

So how do reproductive electronics become more "musical"?

 

[Miker 1102]

Your not a professional musician clearly

Save your sasarcasm

Waynester..my kid plays guitar by ear and has a lot of professional instruction to read music but can't. However, he can lay down guitar lines with the best of them. Some people can describe how sound is reproduced and some people can play music.
There is a tone that some users on here give people who don't subscribe to the vernacular when explaining sound reproduction. ASR discourages subjectivity in assessing this sound reproduction. That is the sarcasm you are hearing about your methodology when comparing avrs is just that people can't use your description of sound. They need to know your understanding of how to use the avr and it's features to reproduce the best sound that you can get from that amp in your particular room. That's why the site is devoted to measurement. I can go to the review page and know how the avr performed basically on a bench test. That's super helpful when shopping for me becaue it gives me a baseline. Everything after this really gets into an array of opinion and subjectivity.
I understood your initial impressions of the Denon products as it's common before adjusting the sound using Audyssey and the editor. There is also a new script that you can run people swear by. My suggestion is try out some instructive video when you set up the 3700 on using Audyssey that is published on Audiholics. I bet you will be super happy with the results.