Upgrading my Denon AVR and other questions

[WaynesterUK]

Hi everybody

I’ve attached a picture of my current home setup

I have a Denon AVR-X2200, it’s been a great little unit.. had it around 9 years now, never given me any issues and still looks as good as new, but it does sound a little bit “thin” when listening to music from my CD Player, watching blu ray music dvds sounds good though, but I do want to sell it and get someat better, i definitely can’t afford a new AVR as i’m about to move house

I'm looking at buying a Mint Condition AVR-X4500 off of my friend and then i’d add a separate amp to the new unit through its HT bypass outs? Will this improve listening to music? and how do I configure this exactly? I’m not very technical and doing this seems a bit daunting as I don’t want to blow anything up

Any stereo amp suggestions ??

I’m also going to be adding a 2nd identical BK XXLS400-FF Subwoofer to this setup



LIVING ROOM SETUP



Panasonic TX-55CX802 Television
Amazon Fire TV Cube
Denon AVR-X2200W
Van Damme Hi Fi Speaker Cables

Monitor Audio Bronze 500 Floorstanders
(For Main front speakers)

Monitor Audio Bronze C150 Centre Speaker

Monitor Audio Bronze 50’s on stands
(For rear surrounds)

BK XXLS400 FF Subwoofer

Marantz CD63 MkII KI Signature CD Player

Pioneer BDP-180 Blu Ray Player

Sony PS4 Pro Games Console

 

[Chrispy]

The 4500 opens up some options for you (Audyssey XT32 as well as the editor app options). If you need more power I'd just use a power amp, and you have a full set of pre-outs to work with as well. I wouldn't bother with an integrated amp instead of a power amp.

 

[WaynesterUK]

The 4500 opens up some options for you (Audyssey XT32 as well as the editor app options). If you need more power I'd just use a power amp, and you have a full set of pre-outs to work with as well. I wouldn't bother with an integrated amp instead of a power amp.

I don’t need more power, just a more musical sound when listening to Music CD’s, which of course with my CD player connected directly to an AVR, clearly will be a bit rubbish

 

[Golfx]

Hi, well your post uses words which mean something to you but may not be understood by us. To me “thin” would indicate lack of bass or a poorly produced song. DVD music videos sound ok but they are played back on your blu ray player. Plus these will no doubt have more bass added than a CD. How does your streamed music sound? Do you use HEOS to stream?

What @Chrispy was indicating is that with Audyssey to can adjust the audio output frequencies and target curve to add more bass boost and/or “de-thin” your upper register to better suit your ears and your room.

Regarding the amplifier of which you asked—you mentioned “stereo amp” you likely meant 2 channel amp (meaning no preamp). More power is the only reason to get one.

More “musical” is one of those special words you use which I do not know how to translate to my understanding. I use math and bench measurements of AVRs and Amps to decide if I will like the sound. Math helps me limit my selection process.

Your new AVR may already have enough power so it may not be necessary to buy an extra amp. If you decide you want one anyway, Buckeye amps offers excellent amps for small prices. I just noticed in your picture you are likely in the UK. If so, Nord Audio offers excellent amps at small prices.

Most of us on this website really like to buy new stuff and find ways to justify our purchases. BTW, your room looks clean, classy and modern. Sigh I have grandchildren which renders those options obsolete.

 

[Chrispy]

I don’t need more power, just a more musical sound when listening to Music CD’s, which of course with my CD player connected directly to an AVR, clearly will be a bit rubbish

Then the integrated amp won't do it either. EQ maybe. You connect your old cd player via analog or digital? I assume it's old since it only plays cds.

 

[paulcc]

Just getting Audyssey XT32 with the ability to use the $20 app to ditch the "BBC" midrange dip will make a huge improvement to your sound. Get the 4500 and spend 20 on the app.

 

[WaynesterUK]

Then the integrated amp won't do it either. EQ maybe. You connect your old cd player via analog or digital? I assume it's old since it only plays cds.

I’ve tried connecting my Marantz CD Player to the analogue and digital of my Denon 2200

it sounds okay, but lacks “fullness” and the highs are too much…

Am I able to just buy a separate amplifier and connect it to my existing speakers? but then my Denon 2200 would also be connected to the speakers at the same time, a dedicated hi fi stereo amp would surely sound better than an AVR??

 

[Chrispy]

NotI’ve tried connecting my Marantz CD Player to the analogue and digital of my Denon 2200

it sounds okay, but lacks “fullness” and the highs are too much…

Am I able to just buy a separate amplifier and connect it to my existing speakers? but then my Denon 2200 would also be connected to the speakers at the same time, a dedicated hi fi stereo amp would surely sound better than an AVR??

Sounds more like a speakers/room issue to me, maybe eq can help. No, you need pre-outs on the 2200 to use another, external, amp. I think you've been reading too much audiophile nonsense.

 

[WaynesterUK]

Sounds more like a speakers/room issue to me, maybe eq can help. No, you need pre-outs on the 2200 to use another, external, amp. I think you've been reading too much audiophile nonsense.

No.. I meant just connect a separate amp straight to my existing speakers.. connect my CD player to this amp, it would solely be used for music through my Monitor Audio Bronze 500 speakers

I can then just use my Denon 2200 as I already am for watching television, blu rays etc

 

[Chrispy]

No.. I meant just connect a separate amp straight to my existing speakers.. connect my CD player to this amp, it would solely be used for music through my Monitor Audio Bronze 500 speakers

I can then just use my Denon 2200 as I already am for watching television, blu rays etc

Not sure how you'd set both together or even why. No magic in amps generally, just different situations to an extent if gear is of good quality. The whole only for music thing is so full of b*llshit....it's largely your speakers and room (and source material).

 

[WaynesterUK]

Not sure how you'd set both together or even why. No magic in amps generally, just different situations to an extent if gear is of good quality. The whole only for music thing is so full of b*llshit....it's largely your speakers and room (and source material).

I don’t know why nobody is understanding my point

I’ve tried listening to Music CD’s through my Denon 2200 in 2 channel mode, it sounds WEAK and not how I know a proper Stereo Hi Fi Amp would sound..

The back of my speakers have 2 sets of inputs

 

[Chrispy]

I don’t know why nobody is understanding my point

I’ve tried listening to Music CD’s through my Denon 2200 in 2 channel mode, it sounds WEAK and not how I know a proper Stereo Hi Fi Amp would sound..

The back of my speakers have 2 sets of inputs

I understand somewhat you're saying, doubt you're getting what I am at this point. Your methodology is poor to begin with. Your subjective preference is hard to know especially if eq/modified response is involved. I've used a variety of 2ch and multich gear setups and haven't found such issues.

 

[GD Fan]

No, you can't use the dual inputs on the back of the speakers to pipe in two different sources. There are two pairs of terminals just to encourage you to buy more speaker wires instead of just using the jumpers. Which wouldn't make a difference.

If the CD player sounds 'weak' I wonder what SPL you're trying to achieve? Could be your Denon lacks the power to generate the volume you want. In that case, yes, an external amplifier might be the solution. But you need to make sure your Denon model has pre-outs that can feed signal to an external amp.

 

[WaynesterUK]

Damn.. my so called friend has sold the Denon 4500, mind you he got offered more money… I’ll have to find another 4500 then

Although, maybe a used 3600 or 3700, or maybe I can stretch to a 4700? hate buying things without a warranty, just incase!

 

[Oddball]

First, here are the measurements and review of you current Denon:

Denon AVR-X2200W Audio/Video Receiver Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X2200W home theater AVR (processor and amplifier). It is on kind loan from a member. Looks like the unit was released back in 2015. I can't find the pricing on it but I am guessing US $700 when new. Used ones seem to go for as...

www.audiosciencereview.com

It ended up with a neutral verdict on this forum. Which is not a bad thing but also not good. It is possibly transparent enough (i.e. does not introduce audible distortion) although not great. But even if it was performing better, like e.g. 3700H (check the review - also on this site), it does not mean that if would sound "stronger" or "fuller" out of the box.

Your room, your speakers and location of the listening position will have much bigger impact than AVR that is more transparent. With that, I understand that you have Audyssey MultiEQ XT onboard, so you can EQ the sound to what might sound better to you. Usually people add quite a bit of bass after done with Audyssey calibration. Some +5dB, some +10dB, some even more. Also, for best sound you would need to integrate your subs and mains, which Audyssey will not necessarily do for you automatically. "Thin" sound might come from some cancelations that could be fixed with distance adjustments. To the extent interested, there is quite a bit on how to do all these things if you search around this or other forums.

Newer and better measuring AVR, like 3700H, would also likely come with newer Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 that will have a higher filter resolution and likely perform a better job in room correction. Otherwise, I would not expect that you would notice other differences if compared in a blind test and out of the box. Not sure if your current AVR is supported by D&M $20 app, newer are. This app makes the tweaking easier.

Thin and weak sound is often associated with lack of bass. Denon AVRs have pretty decent bass management system, but you need to make sure it is tuned in properly. Default setting would be setting all speakers to small and crossing them over to the sub at 80-100hz and than run Audyssey calibration. I would recommend to increase gain on the sub so that Audyssey calibration shows it in red. That will set a negative trim in the AVR for the sub and overall I would not to use AVR volume for the sub in excess of +1 or +2 dB. You can also increase the gain on the sub after calibration for a single sub. If you don't have your gain past 12 o'clock, no wonder that it might sound thin. Also, sometimes the fault of the wrong calibration is in the mic. You have a pretty old mic and they don't tend to age well.

 

[yelloguy]

OP you got good replies. You keep saying the same thing. The answer to your question is NOT a new AVR even though you want it to be.

You can get more improvement using Room EQ than by switching a Denon AVR for a new Denon AVR. Adding another external amp will give you zero change.

When listening to 2 channel audio, start with a reset. Put your Denon in Pure Direct mode and listen to your two speakers with music that is intimately familiar to you. My guess is that the thin-ness or other coloration will disappear if your speakers are any good. You can then work on getting your sub integrated properly. Again, you would need a good sub not a dinky thing sitting in a corner making chuffing noises. What you are trying to do (integrate your speakers to your room) needs some work - unfortunately.

 

[WaynesterUK]

First, here are the measurements and review of you current Denon:

Denon AVR-X2200W Audio/Video Receiver Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X2200W home theater AVR (processor and amplifier). It is on kind loan from a member. Looks like the unit was released back in 2015. I can't find the pricing on it but I am guessing US $700 when new. Used ones seem to go for as...

www.audiosciencereview.com

It ended up with a neutral verdict on this forum. Which is not a bad thing but also not good. It is possibly transparent enough (i.e. does not introduce audible distortion) although not great. But even if it was performing better, like e.g. 3700H (check the review - also on this site), it does not mean that if would sound "stronger" or "fuller" out of the box.

Your room, your speakers and location of the listening position will have much bigger impact than AVR that is more transparent. With that, I understand that you have Audyssey MultiEQ XT onboard, so you can EQ the sound to what might sound better to you. Usually people add quite a bit of bass after done with Audyssey calibration. Some +5dB, some +10dB, some even more. Also, for best sound you would need to integrate your subs and mains, which Audyssey will not necessarily do for you automatically. "Thin" sound might come from some cancelations that could be fixed with distance adjustments. To the extent interested, there is quite a bit on how to do all these things if you search around this or other forums.

Newer and better measuring AVR, like 3700H, would also likely come with newer Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 that will have a higher filter resolution and likely perform a better job in room correction. Otherwise, I would not expect that you would notice other differences if compared in a blind test and out of the box. Not sure if your current AVR is supported by D&M $20 app, newer are. This app makes the tweaking easier.

Thin and weak sound is often associated with lack of bass. Denon AVRs have pretty decent bass management system, but you need to make sure it is tuned in properly. Default setting would be setting all speakers to small and crossing them over to the sub at 80-100hz and than run Audyssey calibration. I would recommend to increase gain on the sub so that Audyssey calibration shows it in red. That will set a negative trim in the AVR for the sub and overall I would not to use AVR volume for the sub in excess of +1 or +2 dB. You can also increase the gain on the sub after calibration for a single sub. If you don't have your gain past 12 o'clock, no wonder that it might sound thin. Also, sometimes the fault of the wrong calibration is in the mic. You have a pretty old mic and they don't tend to age well.

Thanks for the advice

Yeah, the bass is absolutely fine.. sounds BIG
it’s just the mids and highs sound thin, definitely missing in those areas when listening to music CDS in 2 channel mode on my 2200, I’ll have a play with some settings, I’ll also try to take pics of my current settings later to show you all… maybe someat wrong my end? I’m not very “tech” savvy, although I am a professional musician for a living (keyboardist and vocalist) for 35 years

 

[WaynesterUK]

OP you got good replies. You keep saying the same thing. The answer to your question is NOT a new AVR even though you want it to be.

You can get more improvement using Room EQ than by switching a Denon AVR for a new Denon AVR. Adding another external amp will give you zero change.

When listening to 2 channel audio, start with a reset. Put your Denon in Pure Direct mode and listen to your two speakers with music that is intimately familiar to you. My guess is that the thin-ness or other coloration will disappear if your speakers are any good. You can then work on getting your sub integrated properly. Again, you would need a good sub not a dinky thing sitting in a corner making chuffing noises. What you are trying to do (integrate your speakers to your room) needs some work - unfortunately.

My subwoofer is good, it’s a BK XXLS400-FF
and I’m getting another to put on the other side

 

[WaynesterUK]

My subwoofer is good, it’s a BK XXLS400-FF
and I’m getting another to put on the other side

My 2 floor standing speakers are Monitor Audio Bronze 500’s, yes I’ve tried pure direct mode listening to music 2 channel mode, it’s rubbish

 

[Oddball]

Thanks for the advice

Yeah, the bass is absolutely fine.. sounds BIG
it’s just the mids and highs sound thin, definitely missing in those areas when listening to music CDS in 2 channel mode on my 2200, I’ll have a play with some settings, I’ll also try to take pics of my current settings later to show you all… maybe someat wrong my end? I’m not very “tech” savvy, although I am a professional musician for a living (keyboardist and vocalist) for 35 years

Well, there are definitively various levels of BIG

If you can show us at least the Audy measurements (you have the $20 app?), that might help. Audy would have detected your in room response and it could indicate where the problem is. For mids there is also setting for mid-range dip and most people turn that off, but should be checked what sounds better.

Seems that your LR speakers are pretty good, so hopefully the issue is not that you "grew" out of them.