Upgrade my system for better instruments separation

[Berdri]

Hello everyone,

I’m new to this forum which seems to be a place of open-minded people.
My system is pretty simple and does works well in every situation : Mcintosh MA352, Klipsch Forte IV, Atlas Achromatics cables, DACMAGIC 200M Cambridge, Octavio Streamer, Transrotor Darkstar TT, Transorotor Phono III phono pre amp loading an Ortofon Quintet Black S. I aslo have Audioquest cables and multisocket with filterings.

So here is the thing, I do have really rare and expensive vinyl some collectors and some are from the best providers such as UHQR or Mofi. And even with my vinyl setup I do not find the sound really night and day compared to my digital source. I do not believe anymore in vinyl. When I started my audiophile journey I was only into vinyl 100 % times but I wanted digital to give a try and done what is done now. Digital is quiter, deeper, more precise, more convinient and so on...

So I'm think on upgrading my system with the fact that I will maybe sell the TT, phono and Ortofon Quintet Black S. It will get me a pretty bunch of money that I could use for upgrading my system while switching to digital that I enjoy more today. The only thing I find disturbing in my system is that sometimes in certain songs they are some instruments which are blended in the signal, I want to ear all of them very easily without concentration and effort. That would be the final goal and the end of the Hifi Game for me. Otherwise, everything on bass, midgrage, voices, guitar and stuff are all totally fine in my system.

I know I could sounds crazy for the majority of you guys and girls, but my ears are my ears and yours are yours.

But to better clarify eveything to gain time for some of you :
=> I do not believe in cables. Those I have are perfect, I won't change it
=> Room treatment is out of perspectives, I'm still a student at university and I don't have a stable geographical situation at the moment
=> I don't believe in digital source upgrades : the streamer I have is fine, a bunch of 0 and 1 is a bunch of 0 and 1 no matters what procuded it. I won't upgrade that either. The octavio streamer is reliable, affordable and perfectly fine and is a French product so it is nice for my country overall (sometimes you have to think ethical).
=> I won't change the DAC. Cambridge have made an awesome job on this unit, it is pure and silent, perfect in evey aspect. I've compared it to a 3k euros DAC that I've borrowed from my local hifi shops and guess what, the DACMAGIC was equally sounding and even better because it is only 600 euros. For reference, the DAC was an ATOLL DAC300.

I hope that some of you would be able to give me some perspectives and insights to get more instrument sparation in my system.

I'm looking foward to read you.

Best regards !

Theo

 

[bodhi]

Youi probably don't want to hear that to get objectively better sound you could change your amp to D-class Purifi amp with a Topping pre and change your speakers to something that measures well e.g. Revel, KEF. Or go active with Genelec/Neumann. Room EQ of course, couple subs to even out the response.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Better recordings and speakers are where you might gain what you want. Everything else you have should do fine. So speakers is where to focus. As a university situation it will probably come down to what kind of space can you spare. Any of the well designed speakers reviewed here that fit your budget and physical space should work.

 

[Purité Audio]

I wouldn’t sell the turntable, unless you really need the cash, they are nice things and if you have a decent vinyl collection …
Keith

 

[maty]

Easy, the Klipsch Forte IV crossover

and internal improvements (furniture).

Cornwall IV

community.klipsch.com

​

Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!

Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!

Klipsch Forte III Upgrade with Pictures!

www.audiocircle.com

 

[naagratrax]

Don't wanna be rude or judgmental but how a student college can afford an 10K McIntosh and a pair of high end Klipsch
I don't see that every day even in Paris

 

[Willem]

I am afraid you were badly advised with your original gear. Your experience comparing even an expensive vinyl rig with a digital source is completely plausible. The amplifier is another example of unnecessarily expensive gear.

 

[DSJR]

I can't and won't make specific recommendations here, but the search for more 'detail' almost always leads to a lifetime of buying, selling and general 'unhappiness' with the sound of your playback system - been there, done that and actually had 'nirvana' for a few years until the system had to be sold - and so the unhappiness starts all over again...

Some recordings, no matter how well mastered, can be pretty sh*t frankly and no amount of audiophool tweaking can rescue them, no matter what your ears appear to tell you at first. A decent neutral set of monitor speakers (these days active and some of the best respected ones here with DSP as well) will give you a less skewed rendition than the Klipsch and being smaller, easier to transport as well (yes I know it doesn't make sense but these days a smaller speaker can have better bass extension for example as the built-in amps are often more powerful, allowing the midrange to be better equalised). These mid size Klipsch aren't the most subtle of speakers by all accounts, just LOUD apparently (I only know the Heresy's and things have moved on there, I know) - I think Erin did a review -

Klipsch Forte IV Review

Klipsch Forte IV Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

- and I accept that if you listen 4m or more away from them, you''d need a larger speaker or smaller with twin subs to really fill a large space.

Speaking of listening space, if you have a lively room that you can't do anything with, maybe a possible speaker consideration of a model with narrower directivity perhaps? If not and staying with larger passive models, can you get a listen to any of the equivalent (to yours) size JBL Synthesis models? maybe too expensive, but I fell in love with the 4367's when I heard them as the sound was so big hearted and they drew you in with ease. The smaller one at half the price needs low stands which tilt back a touch for best integration, but they may do similar things (nobody wants speakers like that in the UK sadly and the 4367 and L100 Classics seem to have gone down like a lead balloon here, the latter being a better 'version' of what you have sizewise perhaps?).

One more while I'm on speakers - I daresay they'd be bulky and heavy to move around, but the Neumann KH420 should give you all the 'detail' in the recording and in proper proportion too (not exaggerated as so many domestic confections often do). No idea how you'd get to listen to a pair though and that's a massive issue for many.

Hope the above can help and not hinder. I firmly believe the digital source side is pretty much a done deal unless the maker (usually an audiophool type) messes it up or deliberately 'tunes' the output. Cables - well you know the score already but Audioquest don't 'arf charge for some of their fancy *looking* ones...

P.S. The 'stuff' done with vinyl mastering and cutting, coupled with the springy nature of the vinyl will always mean some 'gentling up' of fine details (why vinylistas of old feel 'digital' can be too stark and lively up top). Some far eastern pickups increase the rake angle of the diamonds a bit (often to 25 - 28 degrees) and spice up the top octaves a little (hf rises of a few dB over 9kHz or so) in an attempt to get round it and sometimes it works subjectively!!! Ortofon can design to a subjective spec and I long ago lost touch with their often confusing range of MC cartridges. Yours does seem gently rolled off up top which I used to hear as a 'restraint' while others may find a lack of 'air' depending on the system, room and the state of their ears. if you like this, then my suggestion of an AT OC9 top model with Shibata tip may not go down well My choice would have been a 2M Black instead but I've not compared them (I love the Bronze and the Black refines this further)

 

[Galliardist]

Firstly find out if this problem is there with other systems. Listen at some dealers to alternative speakers.

Secondly, try moving the speakers further into the room if you can and see what difference that makes. These have a rear facing bass unit that needs some space behind it.

Thirdly, if you are listening loud, see if the problem goes away at lower volumes.

Fourthly, if your amp has the autoformers try different taps and see if that helps. I’ve seen subjective reports that it might.

Until you have a more permanent place I would tend away from significant changes. You could try EQ but I wouldn’t add big subs unless you are staying put for a while, and changing speakers now may only lead to a second change when you move.

If in doubt live with what you have now. You could have worse problems than you do…

 

[SSS]

Hello everyone,

I’m new to this forum which seems to be a place of open-minded people.
My system is pretty simple and does works well in every situation : Mcintosh MA352, Klipsch Forte IV, Atlas Achromatics cables, DACMAGIC 200M Cambridge, Octavio Streamer, Transrotor Darkstar TT, Transorotor Phono III phono pre amp loading an Ortofon Quintet Black S. I aslo have Audioquest cables and multisocket with filterings.

So here is the thing, I do have really rare and expensive vinyl some collectors and some are from the best providers such as UHQR or Mofi. And even with my vinyl setup I do not find the sound really night and day compared to my digital source. I do not believe anymore in vinyl. When I started my audiophile journey I was only into vinyl 100 % times but I wanted digital to give a try and done what is done now. Digital is quiter, deeper, more precise, more convinient and so on...

So I'm think on upgrading my system with the fact that I will maybe sell the TT, phono and Ortofon Quintet Black S. It will get me a pretty bunch of money that I could use for upgrading my system while switching to digital that I enjoy more today. The only thing I find disturbing in my system is that sometimes in certain songs they are some instruments which are blended in the signal, I want to ear all of them very easily without concentration and effort. That would be the final goal and the end of the Hifi Game for me. Otherwise, everything on bass, midgrage, voices, guitar and stuff are all totally fine in my system.

I know I could sounds crazy for the majority of you guys and girls, but my ears are my ears and yours are yours.

But to better clarify eveything to gain time for some of you :
=> I do not believe in cables. Those I have are perfect, I won't change it
=> Room treatment is out of perspectives, I'm still a student at university and I don't have a stable geographical situation at the moment
=> I don't believe in digital source upgrades : the streamer I have is fine, a bunch of 0 and 1 is a bunch of 0 and 1 no matters what procuded it. I won't upgrade that either. The octavio streamer is reliable, affordable and perfectly fine and is a French product so it is nice for my country overall (sometimes you have to think ethical).
=> I won't change the DAC. Cambridge have made an awesome job on this unit, it is pure and silent, perfect in evey aspect. I've compared it to a 3k euros DAC that I've borrowed from my local hifi shops and guess what, the DACMAGIC was equally sounding and even better because it is only 600 euros. For reference, the DAC was an ATOLL DAC300.

I hope that some of you would be able to give me some perspectives and insights to get more instrument sparation in my system.

I'm looking foward to read you.

Best regards !

Theo

Can't help you on the separation when using digital sound sources. But vinyl has less channel separation by default. Myself I changed from vinyl to digital only and sound in general is much better. No noise at all. Clear sound. Do not listen to my LPs anymore.

 

[Willem]

Sound quality is largely determined by, first, the quality of the recording. Classical recordings may have some real acoustic information, but pop recordings rarely. Second, the speakers. Speaker imperfections are inevitably far larger than those in electronics, so this is by and large where much of the budget should go. And third and finally there is the room. The problems here should be distinguished between those above and below the Schroeder frequency. Above the Schroeder frequency you may suffer from reflections, and may need some damping. Below the Schroeder frequency the problem is room modes that produce a booming sound. Here, multiple subs and dsp room equalization are the answer. In temporary accommodation I would never invest too much money or time. If the room is very barren, you may benefit from some soft furnishings.

 

[Achim1812]

Do not listen to my LPs anymore.

That will only happen a (hopefully) short time before I close my eyes for ever...

 

[Koeitje]

Youi probably don't want to hear that to get objectively better sound you could change your amp to D-class Purifi amp with a Topping pre and change your speakers to something that measures well e.g. Revel, KEF. Or go active with Genelec/Neumann. Room EQ of course, couple subs to even out the response.

There is nothing wrong with his electronics. Literally nothing.

He does need better speakers though. The Forte IV is kind of a mess. 99% of the time people ask for better sound the answer is better loudspeakers.

 

[bodhi]

There is nothing wrong with his electronics. Literally nothing.

Except the amp costs 10k and performs at best equally as something ten times cheaper. It's great if you want to collect nice looking stuff, but the guy is about to sell his turntable setup that actually does something instead of just bringing audiophile credibility.

 

[Berdri]

Well thanks everybody for all your answer.
Overall, it would means that my speakers would be the major point to invest in to get better sounds as my electronics is fine
I will think about that

 

[Willem]

Just wait until you have permanent accommodation. If you sell anything, spend the money on dsp room equalization.

 

[Koeitje]

Well thanks everybody for all your answer.
Overall, it would means that my speakers would be the major point to invest in to get better sounds as my electronics is fine
I will think about that

Invest sounds like a big word. You can buy speakers for the same money that perform much better.

Except the amp costs 10k and performs at best equally as something ten times cheaper. It's great if you want to collect nice looking stuff, but the guy is about to sell his turntable setup that actually does something instead of just bringing audiophile credibility.

I know, but there is nothing wrong with McIntosh. They make very high quality products that also perform well. If I owned what he owned I'd also sell the turntable and not the amplifier.

 

[FeddyLost]

The only thing I find disturbing in my system is that sometimes in certain songs they are some instruments which are blended in the signal, I want to ear all of them very easily without concentration and effort.

Just to avoid unneccessary actions, I'd recommend you to spend some time and money for visiting some good commercial studio with your "problematic" records and listen IF there is required clarity in control room.
It might just not present even in record.

Pursuit for "unreal clarity" is some kind of neurosis IMO that can eat out time, money and happiness.

But if it turns out that your existing setup obviously lacks clarity compared to studio, there are not much options.
Usually, main evil is the room.
It's not easy to tell without measurements (like Clarity in REW), but if your room is not treated at all, you have good chances that it's the problem.
If you can't apply room treatment at all, your only option is decent DRC like Trinnov.

 

[ZolaIII]

For beginners buy measuring microphone like UMIK-1 and learn basics of how to use it with REW. Then when you are able to see what's going on (along with all of us) we can talk what can be achieved. Ears are ears your or someone else's but graph (mic response) tells more than 1000 of words.
I have mixed feelings about those speakers (all around from resonances to crossovers and not in a good way).

Klipsch Forte III loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements I used DRA Labs' MLSSA system and a calibrated DPA 4006 microphone to measure the Forte III's frequency response in the farfield and an Earthworks QTC-40 mike for the nearfield responses.

www.stereophile.com

After you try with digital PEQ then you can go with better speakers (supposed that ones you own are part of the problem), getting sub's and treating the room (including ISO 3382-1) which won't either be easy or cheap for the bass.

 

[Willem]

How big is the room?