Can I be just nuts?

[alaios]

So I just came back from a dealer where I have listened to some focal speakers driven with some naim amplifier. I do not think that I need to explain which where the exact speakers and amp combo. It is enough to say that the I was listening to a 5.000 euros system, in an acoustically treated room (everything was covered in some sort of absorber diffuser)
The shop is one of the well known shops in Athens.

Yes the system was good, articulate and clear, yes it was better from what I have at home. But I have not felt that there is improved staging, I was not able to place the music organs at more exact places as my tiny system at home does. At home, I am listening with two dalis oberon 1s with some smallishs subs.

I just find my system to be enough to enjoy the music, the recording, I find that there is enough pleasure to even think for some marginal upgrade. Can that be true? Can I just be nuts? It is the second time that I listen to a treated room with some high end stuff but I do not get really that more excited.

I am totally fine to discuss that I might have bad hearing. Even more laughable my system is run by denon all in one m41 little unit and I was thinking to upgrade my amp. I just do not see the need even for that (I do not listen to high volumes)


Your heretic forum friend.
Alex

 

[Gregss]

Only thing that matters at all is if you are enjoying the music. Everything else is frosting.

 

[Anton D]

You may be right, you may be crazy...but if you are happy with what you've assembled, that's awesome!

No need to feel angst, you have it perfect!

Kudos!

 

[alaios]

Only thing that matters at all is if you are enjoying the music. Everything else is frosting.

I know. I was recently thinking to get a leak 130 just for the way it looks , thinking that there will be an upgrade from my denon m41. PEople told me that leak is not good since they are not giving all their measurements but just some random average. People told me that measurements matter. That measurements do not matter. That focal is good and the rest is bad, that my frequency response is too bad or too good. I have seen dealers saying different things. I have seen people discussing the audible curve, that we need higher power to listen to the bass properly and today some others one saying that this is a myth. I have never ever seen in my life a field where it feels like alchemy

 

[Punter]

If the room you listened to the amp and speakers in has been properly acoustically treated (based on testing), the I dare say that the speakers would not sound the same in a domestic living room. They might in fact sound awful! Personally, I think if your current setup satisfies your requirements there is no need to change it. I won't use the word "upgrade" because without any sort of in-place listening, you wouldn't have any idea how the equipment will sound in your listening environment.

 

[Snarfie]

So I just came back from a dealer where I have listened to some focal speakers driven with some naim amplifier. I do not think that I need to explain which where the exact speakers and amp combo. It is enough to say that the I was listening to a 5.000 euros system, in an acoustically treated room (everything was covered in some sort of absorber diffuser)
The shop is one of the well known shops in Athens.

Yes the system was good, articulate and clear, yes it was better from what I have at home. But I have not felt that there is improved staging, I was not able to place the music organs at more exact places as my tiny system at home does. At home, I am listening with two dalis oberon 1s with some smallishs subs.

I just find my system to be enough to enjoy the music, the recording, I find that there is enough pleasure to even think for some marginal upgrade. Can that be true? Can I just be nuts? It is the second time that I listen to a treated room with some high end stuff but I do not get really that more excited.

I am totally fine to discuss that I might have bad hearing. Even more laughable my system is run by denon all in one m41 little unit and I was thinking to upgrade my amp. I just do not see the need even for that (I do not listen to high volumes)


Your heretic forum friend.
Alex

Same impression i have.

Last time i listed at a high end audio shop i was not impressed with the close to 30.000,- euro valve high midrange an lowend class D speaker system compared to mine used 1500,- NAD C370 topping D10 dac (new 78,- euro) an Vandersteen model 1 speakers included a Lenovo thinkpad laptop corrected by Mathaudio Room EQ.
Only difference was the sheer power of the lowend class D amp thighter bass.

Best audio gear investment i ever did is buying a measuring mic for 38,- euro. Seeing en correcting the measured result was revealing.

 

[Galliardist]

So, welcome to one of the little secrets of audio.

There's far less to improve, if your conventional stereo system at any price (no matter how low!) consists of decent equipment, properly matched and properly setup, than most people believe.

Sure, you can upgrade to a bigger or better room, if you have the money: you can probably get lower bass, maybe even decently controlled lower bass, for an amount of time and a reasonable extra outlay, you can maybe get small gains from speakers with much more expensive tweeters and superior design in other areas (but they still have to work in your room).
You can always look for something different to conventional stereo, which will sound different and may well sound better to you

What's more, straight forward swap-something-else in "upgrades" can go wrong: the common example being upgrading to a "better speaker" that your amp can't drive, then having to pay more money for a more powerful amp, then finding that your preamp or DAC/pre doesn't have enough gain, etc. etc. Next thing you know, you end up with a much more expensive system for no real gain.

Since you've made it to ASR, you may well have already realised that there's nothing to gain from the exotics of cables and power regenerators and audiophile this and that, as well.

So if it sounds good, enjoy it: if you plan to upgrade, make sure you are adding something worthwhile, rather than just swapping stuff in that should "sound better" because it's expensive or has some kind of better number, or because it "sounded good" somewhere else.

 

[alaios]

I do have a mini denon m41 that is driving my main speakers, I always thought that a 1000 euros integrated will be an important upgrade but really I am not sure anymore.

 

[ahofer]

Upgrades make less difference than we like to think. Also, audio store setups are not always optimal (to say nothing of the equipment). The first time I heard bigger JBL and Revel speakers was in the Harman store in NY (now closed). Horrible setup. What a tragedy.

 

[dominikz]

Can that be true? Can I just be nuts?

Based on what you wrote I think you're probably more sane than the rest of us in the audio hobby (myself included).

I do have a mini denon m41 that is driving my main speakers, I always thought that a 1000 euros integrated will be an important upgrade but really I am not sure anymore.

If you don't need any more power nor additional features there's no reason to believe any amplifier would give you any better sound quality. It is IMHO much better to invest in a measurement microphone, DSP and a subwoofer (or few) and learn to optimize your current setup.

I use a Denon Ceol RCD-N9 - so slightly more powerful, but otherwise not really very different to your M41 - and see absolutely no need to upgrade from sound quality perspective.
At this stage the only reason I can see why I'd ever want to upgrade from the Denon would be:
a) if I need more power some day (unlikely),
b) to get an all-in-one solution with HDMI ARC, on-board DSP/PEQ and streaming (I generally like to have as few boxes as possible), and/or
c) to upgrade to multichannel

 

[Ze Frog]

To be fair, a lot of stuff doesn't really sound better as you go up in price etc. Plus newer stuff these days, even what might actually measure great etc can seem just as good as some equipment that does. I think personally, a massive part of the audio experience relates to how I feel towards the gear I might be using at a given time.

I am here because I obviously appreciate the fact of knowing something is well engineered mainly as a start point, it's kind of validating to know whatever you buy isn't a complete clunker. Can I hear all these super impressive things if I haven't seen the measurements beforehand, not likely really, certainly not unless it's really quite bad with electronics's. Speakers, well that's kind of a more likely noticeable aspect of a system, but even then, a great measuring speaker, if I didn't know, and maybe thought it looked ugly, well it could possibly sound not so great. There's just too many variables beyond the physical science of a specific thing, the science is largely a measure of quality in my mind.

 

[Ze Frog]

I know. I was recently thinking to get a leak 130 just for the way it looks , thinking that there will be an upgrade from my denon m41. PEople told me that leak is not good since they are not giving all their measurements but just some random average. People told me that measurements matter. That measurements do not matter. That focal is good and the rest is bad, that my frequency response is too bad or too good. I have seen dealers saying different things. I have seen people discussing the audible curve, that we need higher power to listen to the bass properly and today some others one saying that this is a myth. I have never ever seen in my life a field where it feels like alchemy

I'd go with the 230 if you can, just for the little extra power if nothing else unless you are driving really sensitive speakers.

Have to agree, the looks are really something, half tempted myself if the speakers measure any good from their new Sandwich range.

 

[DSJR]

I know Naim have changed quite a lot since the early noughties models including those in the cosmetic then they'd just launched, but their interconnects had unshielded conductors (within and without) and a lot of the Naim 'sound' we used to hear (in addition to odd order distortions and odd taxi breakthrough) was the cable seeming to give an over-wide centre image and reduced left-right - no, not a level matched quick A-B but comparing cables without changing the volume and listening over a prolonged period - the full effect being what reviewer Paul Messenger called a 'soup-like' acoustic. I daren't speak (sorry) of the Focals but some can sound quite nice. Were these wobbling on carpet or foo 'decouplers' perhaps?

How does anyone know whether Leak (IAG) are not going after measurements? have these things been properly tested to confirm? As I can't remotely trust my ears alone now, I do need proper testing to make informed choices and it's a shame in a way that HiFi World has gone, as personal opinions aside in th eprose and comments on the measurements, a basic set of tests was done regardless.

 

[krabapple]

Have you considered exploring vinyl? There's a renaissance going on, I hear, though no one can explain it.

 

[DVDdoug]

But I have not felt that there is improved staging

I NEVER get a "precise" soundstage... Everything seems a little vague except sometimes hard-panned sounds coming directly from left or right speakers, especially the high frequencies coming from the tweeters. I doesn't bother me and I don't worry about it since I'm mostly listening to rock where the vocals & instruments are artificially panned anyway.

Live rock is mono through the PA system except for sounds that you might hear coming directly from the stage.

Concert halls are highly reverberant so you get a lot of reflected sound so I suspect you can't really locate sounds without looking or without knowing how an orchestra is normally arranged. (I've only been in a concert hall once or twice and I wasn't playing attention to that.

And our ears aren't "perfect" at locating sounds... Have you ever tried to find a squeak or rattle in your car, or a cricket?

IIRC - Floyd Tool says "soundstage comes from the recording", but obviously your brain is involved, since it's an illusion with only 2 speakers. I assume it's more precise in a "dead" room with regular-directional speakers. It's PROBABLY more vague in a reflective room and/or with omnidirectional speakers.

...And there's a reason for a center speaker in surround setups.

There's a lot of talk about headphone soundstage, and although i don't get anything like a realistic soundstage, so I was surprised to see This Headphone Soundstage Survey.

I always thought that a 1000 euros integrated will be an important upgrade but really I am not sure anymore.

Amplifiers (and electronics in general) are pretty much "solved" as long as you have enough power and the features you want/need. Sometimes you can get audible noise (hum, hiss or whine in the background). There is ALWAYS SOME noise from analog electronics and weather it's audible or not also depends on how efficient/sensitive your speakers are, how close you are to the speakers, and the other ambient noise in the room.

You get more bang-for-the-buck with a receiver or audio video receiver. Separate integrated amps, preamps, and power amps are specialty items, and when you get into the "audiophile market a higher price tends to make a product more desirable. Receivers & AVRs are mass-produced and sold into a very-competitive market.

Also see Audiophoolery.

 

[Ze Frog]

I know Naim have changed quite a lot since the early noughties models including those in the cosmetic then they'd just launched, but their interconnects had unshielded conductors (within and without) and a lot of the Naim 'sound' we used to hear (in addition to odd order distortions and odd taxi breakthrough) was the cable seeming to give an over-wide centre image and reduced left-right - no, not a level matched quick A-B but comparing cables without changing the volume and listening over a prolonged period - the full effect being what reviewer Paul Messenger called a 'soup-like' acoustic. I daren't speak (sorry) of the Focals but some can sound quite nice. Were these wobbling on carpet or foo 'decouplers' perhaps?

How does anyone know whether Leak (IAG) are not going after measurements? have these things been properly tested to confirm? As I can't remotely trust my ears alone now, I do need proper testing to make informed choices and it's a shame in a way that HiFi World has gone, as personal opinions aside in th eprose and comments on the measurements, a basic set of tests was done regardless.

IAG are a mixed bag to be fair. The Linton's for instance measured really quite well, the more expensive one, can't remember which... well, not so much. Most of their amplifier's seem to do OK with customer reviews, glowing in fact. As for measurements, not sure as have not seen here and I only really trust Amir or Erin. For what it's worth though, Stereophile thought the 230 measured well on all aspects.

 

[DVDdoug]

Have you considered exploring vinyl?

Some people enjoy it but technically it's inferior to digital in every way! (Noise, distortion, and frequency response). You can ALWAYS hear background noise (during quiet parts or between tracks) and sometimes there are nasty clicks & pops.

 

[Steve H]

So I just came back from a dealer where I have listened to some focal speakers driven with some naim amplifier. I do not think that I need to explain which where the exact speakers and amp combo. It is enough to say that the I was listening to a 5.000 euros system, in an acoustically treated room (everything was covered in some sort of absorber diffuser)
The shop is one of the well known shops in Athens.

Yes the system was good, articulate and clear, yes it was better from what I have at home. But I have not felt that there is improved staging, I was not able to place the music organs at more exact places as my tiny system at home does. At home, I am listening with two dalis oberon 1s with some smallishs subs.

I just find my system to be enough to enjoy the music, the recording, I find that there is enough pleasure to even think for some marginal upgrade. Can that be true? Can I just be nuts? It is the second time that I listen to a treated room with some high end stuff but I do not get really that more excited.

I am totally fine to discuss that I might have bad hearing. Even more laughable my system is run by denon all in one m41 little unit and I was thinking to upgrade my amp. I just do not see the need even for that (I do not listen to high volumes)


Your heretic forum friend.
Alex

You don’t seem like you would fit in at What’s Best Forum so you probably aren’t nuts.

If my sample size is representative of all audiophiles, then I can say audiophiles don’t hear all that well. Primarily age is the issue.

My only advice would be to make sure any upgrade you are contemplating is actually an upgrade in your listening space.

 

[aagstn]

So I just came back from a dealer where I have listened to some focal speakers driven with some naim amplifier. I do not think that I need to explain which where the exact speakers and amp combo. It is enough to say that the I was listening to a 5.000 euros system, in an acoustically treated room (everything was covered in some sort of absorber diffuser)
The shop is one of the well known shops in Athens.

Yes the system was good, articulate and clear, yes it was better from what I have at home. But I have not felt that there is improved staging, I was not able to place the music organs at more exact places as my tiny system at home does. At home, I am listening with two dalis oberon 1s with some smallishs subs.

I just find my system to be enough to enjoy the music, the recording, I find that there is enough pleasure to even think for some marginal upgrade. Can that be true? Can I just be nuts? It is the second time that I listen to a treated room with some high end stuff but I do not get really that more excited.

I am totally fine to discuss that I might have bad hearing. Even more laughable my system is run by denon all in one m41 little unit and I was thinking to upgrade my amp. I just do not see the need even for that (I do not listen to high volumes)


Your heretic forum friend.
Alex

Seems sane to me. I do most of my listening in a home office and just enjoy listening. It is a smaller room and once I got my speakers setup where I finally liked it and got the sub crossover set right I don't see any need to touch anything. My setup is very budget, but the equipment is all good. Old Yamaha receiver, old Denon CD changer, old Sony Tape deck, decent Audio Technica turntable, Wiim Pro+ and, Klipsch speakers. Nothing was that expensive but it all works for me and I doubt if I spent more I would get much of an improvement. I've decided to just be happy with what I have and save my money to buy music.

 

[ChrisG]

My system consists of a Denon AVR and a pair of custom-built speakers. I used to change things every few months, but this system hasn't been dismantled/tweaked/messed-with for years. I just enjoy the music.

Welcome to the small club of people that are happy with their audio system.