"Uncle Roger" on Food....

[Keith_W]

Personally I care mainly about taste, but usually authentic methods are authentic for good reasons, the main one being taste. There are some adopted recipes that have been improved/altered to local tastes that are fine or sometimes better than the original IMO.

Hmm, there are some that are better, but most that I can think of are worse: Tex-Mex is worse than Mexican, so is American pizza, pasta, and Chinese food. I have never tried an Indian restaurant in the USA, but in the UK Indian food is almost a national cuisine (Chicken Tikka Masala is said to be the no. 1 takeaway food in the UK, beating fish and chips). For a start, Chicken Tikka Masala is a UK invention and the rest of UK Indian cuisine lacks the spiciness and zinginess of real Indian food (disclaimer, I have never been to India, but I have eaten the cooking of my Indian friends, and they have taken me to what they consider to be authentic Indian restaurants in Australia). In every case, whenever a foreign cuisine is imported into a Western country, it is toned down and made more bland.

What about Western cuisines imported into Asian countries? Like Malaysia's Ramly burger (a burger patty wrapped in an omelette and filled with chilli sauce), Japanese cheesecakes, egg tarts (an adaptation of the Portuguese egg tart), Vietnamese Banh Mi (Vietnamese reinterpretation of French baguettes), Korean army stew? In those cases I would say that there is so much local content in it that it has become a different product and they don't even try to pay homage to the original Western version by giving it the same name. The exceptions are: pizza found in Asian countries which are just as horrible as what you might find in Australia or some parts of the USA. The exception would be NY style pizza which is a different product to Italian pizza - as long as you get it out of your head and try to forget the expectation of eating an Italian pizza, it is delicious in its own right.

I think you have to consider that Jamie Oliver, Gordon Ramsey et al are aiming their recipes at Western audiences who are probably slightly above average at cooking, at best.

I imagine that the (East) Asian community in Britain is not too happy about Uncle Roger. They are loathe to share recipes, as their takeaway restaurants do very well, so most of them are probably happy to see these diluted/inauthentic recipes proliferate - it means more customers when they want the proper stuff!

Jamie Oliver is a talentless hack. He mangles everything he touches and makes no effort at authenticity. His target audience are people whose idea of foreign cuisine is what they are served in whatever depressing restaurant found in whatever depressing suburb they live in. I have respect for Gordon Ramsay, I have been to a few of his restaurants and the guy can really cook (or at least, direct his chefs on how to cook). And about half of his videos are quite authentic.

As a member of that East Asian community myself, and even from the same country as Uncle Roger (and I can do a pretty good Uncle Roger impersonation given that I can speak like that if I want to), I am really pleased that Uncle Roger is starting this conversation. I would love it if all those inauthentic restaurants were to disappear, and you have a situation like you find in countries with real cuisines such as Japan, Mexico, Italy, Greece, Nigeria, Turkey, France, China, and all the South-East Asian countries (except Singapore) - where restaurants compete on who can produce the most authentic cuisine which respects tradition and where there is no place for bastardized versions except for tourists.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

////

And video that got him famous/on this track: "Olive oil is white people grease!"

"Whhhaaattt! Chili Jam?????!!!!! FUIYOH!!!!!!!" Will alway remember the Chili Jam. Don't know how Jamie Oliver will ever live that down. Oh, the ignominy! The ignominy!

 

[Digby]

For a start, Chicken Tikka Masala is a UK invention and the rest of UK Indian cuisine lacks the spiciness and zinginess of real Indian food (disclaimer, I have never been to India, but I have eaten the cooking of my Indian friends, and they have taken me to what they consider to be authentic Indian restaurants in Australia). In every case, whenever a foreign cuisine is imported into a Western country, it is toned down and made more bland.

The Chicken Tikka Masala story sounds like a bit of a tall tale to me. I'm pretty sure they were plenty of similar curries before that were adapted slightly (less red chilli powder, no green chillies) that then became that dish. The story of it being 'invented' in the UK seems a stretch to me.

"Indian" food in Britain is 99% Bangladeshi. They use different and seemingly a more limited range of spices than Indians; heavy on onions, less garlic and ginger, fewer powdered spices. It is somewhat blander and Indians I've spoken to have emphasised how Bangladeshi food and Indian aren't the same. My experience seems to chime with this.

What about Western cuisines imported into Asian countries? Like Malaysia's Ramly burger (a burger patty wrapped in an omelette and filled with chilli sauce), Japanese cheesecakes, egg tarts (an adaptation of the Portuguese egg tart), Vietnamese Banh Mi (Vietnamese reinterpretation of French baguettes), Korean army stew? In those cases I would say that there is so much local content in it that it has become a different product and they don't even try to pay homage to the original Western version by giving it the same name. The exceptions are: pizza found in Asian countries which are just as horrible as what you might find in Australia or some parts of the USA. The exception would be NY style pizza which is a different product to Italian pizza - as long as you get it out of your head and try to forget the expectation of eating an Italian pizza, it is delicious in its own right.

I think it is a highly unlikely to expect people from different cooking traditions to master everything. If probably takes a decade to master one type of cooking. I don't expect a Frenchman to be able to cook authentic Chinese food, 9 times out of 10, and I don't expect a Cantonese chef to be a master of French cuisine. It is not impossible, of course, just unlikely. If I want to cook Chinese food I'd watch a Chinese guy, speaking in his mother tongue, cooking it and emulate that. Youtube is great for that. You even get subtitles much of the time, other times you know what the ingredients are by sight alone.

What do you think of this guy, for instance:

https://www.youtube.com/@TasteShow/videos

As a member of that East Asian community myself, and even from the same country as Uncle Roger (and I can do a pretty good Uncle Roger impersonation given that I can speak like that if I want to), I am really pleased that Uncle Roger is starting this conversation. I would love it if all those inauthentic restaurants were to disappear, and you have a situation like you find in countries with real cuisines such as Japan, Mexico, Italy, Greece, Nigeria, Turkey, France, China, and all the South-East Asian countries (except Singapore) - where restaurants compete on who can produce the most authentic cuisine which respects tradition and where there is no place for bastardized versions except for tourists.

I think there are few problems here. There is an expectation that Westerners don't eat spicy food (essentially chillies, but of course this is not the only spice), this is maybe 30% correct. However, almost all Thai restaurants cook their food more or less the way they'd cook it for themselves. More unusual dishes are off the menu, but except for having fewer red chillies (you can request food be 'Thai hot'), it is essentially the same food. I would say the people frequenting Thai restaurants (in the UK) are usually a different group of people to those going to Chinese restaurants, in that they have broader tastes and know what they are getting in advance. They understand it is 'spicy', they are going to experience spicy food.

The problems with Chinese cuisine in the UK are many fold, in my opinion. I'd love to get some real Chinese food and there are probably plenty of people of Chinese descent in my area that could cook it, but save being in a large city in the UK, you are very unlikely to find proper Chinese food. Numerous reasons I can think of, not all to do with Western reluctance to try it.

Chinese (takeaway) food is mostly eaten by people of lower economic background. They mostly expect old favourites and don't want to be pushed out of their comfort zone.
Chinese owners don't want to risk cooking authentic Chinese food, because they may end up with fewer customers. Those expecting anglicized stuff are put off and 99% of foodie types in the UK know that Chinese restaurants aren't serving truly Chinese food.
Expense - it is rather more expensive to cook food using the proper ingredients, rather than cheap sugary sauces. Restaurant owners won't take the risks. Everyone in business wants to remain in profit.

Sadly, I'd say there is as much, if not more reluctance from Chinese to cook their true cuisine, than from British people to try it. It would be a business risk they aren't willing to take outside of places with large Chinese diaspora. It is a shame, but save me (non-Chinese) going into a shop and speaking fluent Mandarin or Cantonese, I have a snowball's chance in hell of getting authentic cuisine from one of these takeaway places, so I wouldn't bother.

Are you in the US or Australia, what is the situation with Chinese vs "Chinese" food in those countries. Which one are you more likely to find?

 

[Keith_W]

The Chicken Tikka Masala story sounds like a bit of a tall tale to me. I'm pretty sure they were plenty of similar curries before that were adapted slightly (less red chilli powder, no green chillies) that then became that dish. The story of it being 'invented' in the UK seems a stretch to me.

"Indian" food in Britain is 99% Bangladeshi. They use different and seemingly a more limited range of spices than Indians; heavy on onions, less garlic and ginger, fewer powdered spices. It is somewhat blander and Indians I've spoken to have emphasised how Bangladeshi food and Indian aren't the same. My experience seems to chime with this.

I think it is a highly unlikely to expect people from different cooking traditions to master everything. If probably takes a decade to master one type of cooking.

Actually, if you follow some of those Youtube channels, and if you know what the actual food tastes like, you can do a reasonable version at home yourself. Check out these channels:

https://www.youtube.com/@vincenzosplate

https://www.youtube.com/@italiasquisita

The Vincenzo's Plate version of Bolognese and Carbonara are startlingly similar to what I tasted when I was in Italy, perhaps even better. For my first attempt at his Carbonara, I followed the proportions he gave in his recipe exactly. Then I looked up other recipes and saw that some others used 100% Pecorino instead of 50% Pecorino, 50% Parmigiano-Reggiano. Tried that and it was a tad too cheesy. Saw another recipe which recommended throwing away the rendered fat from the guanciale and use olive oil instead (the result is a lighter tasting Carbonara). So now I have my own version of Carbonara, which I can tell you beats most Italian restaurants in Australia.

Of course, with other cuisines you might need specialized equipment or techniques, for example wok cooking needs a wok burner to get good results, and then you need to learn to control the heat and toss the food in the wok without throwing food all over the place. I practiced outside with rice and a good leaf blower until I mastered the technique, but it is still too easy to burn the food if you are not careful. I can do very good versions of Malaysian Chinese dishes but can not beat the masters in Malaysia who do it for a living.

What do you think of this guy, for instance:

https://www.youtube.com/@TasteShow/videos

Chef John is great, and I am sure his food is delicious. But - you have to be aware that his versions of those dishes are very much his versions. It is not the traditional Chinese version. Those are variations from the classic recipes. There is nothing wrong with that - if you watch that Italia Squisita channel that I linked above, you will find some videos like "Tomato Pasta - traditional vs. modern" in which they compare a version cooked by an Italian Nonna (to show you the traditional version) compared to a restaurant chef who modernizes it. A great example is this video by Cristiano Tomei where he shows you how his modern version uses the same ingredients. Chef John is like Tomei, in that his recipes are evolved versions of traditional recipes, but he does not tell you how his version is different. You have to know the cooking to realize that he is departing from the traditional recipe.

The problems with Chinese cuisine in the UK are many fold, in my opinion. I'd love to get some real Chinese food and there are probably plenty of people of Chinese descent in my area that could cook it, but save being in a large city in the UK, you are very unlikely to find proper Chinese food. Numerous reasons I can think of, not all to do with Western reluctance to try it.

You can get good Chinese food in the UK. I have been to a few restaurants in London that serve it. I could ask my sister who lives in London for some recommendations if you like.

Are you in the US or Australia, what is the situation with Chinese vs "Chinese" food in those countries. Which one are you more likely to find?

I am in Australia. There are enough Chinese migrants of all types here that you can get really authentic Chinese food, for example Sichuanese restaurants where they will refuse to serve you a dish if you ask for no chilli in it. They will tell you to pick something else. Or where the mildest level of chilli is still way hotter than what I can handle - and believe me as a Malaysian I can handle chilli, but this was on another level.

Funny story - my dad only wants to eat Chinese food. When I was a kid we visited many countries with beautiful cuisines but we only ate Chinese food. When we visited Spain for the first time, we ate in awful Chinese restaurants every night. Many years later, he was retired and I was earning my own money - so I took my parents on a holiday in Europe. I told him this time i'm paying, so I get to choose the restaurant. He protested and said he wants to pay for dinner (so that he can get his Chinese food) but my mum made him relent. I told him we are going to a tapas bar and said it's something like Spanish dimsum. Well, he enjoyed it so much that he wanted to go for Spanish food every night. At our last night, he eagerly asked me where we are going. I told him "a canned food restaurant". He went wide eyed and asked me if I was joking. I said "no joke, they open a can, give you a fork and some bread, and you eat it with some wine to wash it down". If you know Chinese people, they do not consider that to be food - for us, food has to be cooked, and it has to be served hot. Even canned food is reheated before it is served. He absolutely hated the idea. Anyway, I got to the restaurant late and my parents were already there. When I got there, I found my dad drunk, with the pretty waitress bringing him another can of octopus, and he was so happy. So yeah, that's what authentic food does for you.

 

[BlackTalon]

The Chicken Tikka Masala story sounds like a bit of a tall tale to me. I'm pretty sure they were plenty of similar curries before that were adapted slightly (less red chilli powder, no green chillies) that then became that dish. The story of it being 'invented' in the UK seems a stretch to me.

My wife returned this afternoon from 10 days in India. She talked about the delicious Tikka Masala she ate several times. I mentioned reading here day or two ago that the dish likely originates in the UK, which she immediately shot down. So a few minutes googling and I landed on the Wikipedia page, and sure enough the dish is thought to originate in the UK (with 'butter chicken' likely being the inspiration). Chefs from Bangladesh and Pakistan were mentioned as the possible inventors of the dish.

 

[Keith_W]

My wife returned this afternoon from 10 days in India. She talked about the delicious Tikka Masala she ate several times. I mentioned reading here day or two ago that the dish likely originates in the UK, which she immediately shot down. So a few minutes googling and I landed on the Wikipedia page, and sure enough the dish is thought to originate in the UK (with 'butter chicken' likely being the inspiration). Chefs from Bangladesh and Pakistan were mentioned as the possible inventors of the dish.

Yup. Here are a few other little food snippets:

- Garlic bread is not Italian. The closest thing they have to garlic bread is a light rub of raw garlic rubbed over toasted bread in bruschetta.
- Chop Suey is not Chinese. Neither is General Tso's chicken. Both are American inventions.
- Singapore noodles do not exist in Singapore.
- "Satay" is a misused term for any sauce featuring crushed peanuts / peanut butter with some curry powder. Malaysian satay is completely different.
- You will be shot if you ask for pineapple on your pizza in Italy. But you should probably be shot anyway if you like pineapple on your pizza.

 

[Chrispy]

Okay maybe need to revisit this guy, didn't realize he was a comedian.....

 

[amirm]

I think the most shocking thing is that fortune cookie was invented in US! I remember hearing this long time ago and not wanting to believe it.....

 

[amirm]

Chinese (takeaway) food is mostly eaten by people of lower economic background.

My brother and family used to live in UK. I visited them some 30 years ago and asked them if they liked Chinese food. They said they had never had it even though there was a take away Chinese around the corner to their house. So I say let's try it. Go to the place and order a bunch of items. Bring them home and none of it was edible! Most horrid Chinese food I have ever had. Needless to say, they went hungry instead of eating it.

At that time, Chinese food in London was rare let alone rest of UK. I imagine it is all changed now. And heaven knows we too have horrible Chinese in random strip malls here....

 

[Chrispy]

I think the most shocking thing is that fortune cookie was invented in US! I remember hearing this long time ago and not wanting to believe it.....

LOL my parents clued me into that early on....they met going to Berkeley tho, so no shortage of authenticity or not....

 

[Keith_W]

How to tell if a restaurant serves authentic food: look at the menu and look in the restaurant. If it's a Chinese restaurant, and if you see items like Chop Suey, Long or Short Soup, or the same type of protein cooked in the same types of sauce in different combinations (e.g. pork, chicken, beef, or fish in sweet and sour sauce), it's not authentic. If the tables are laid out with forks and spoons instead of chopsticks, avoid. OTOH if it has really strange things on the menu, like tripe or other types of offal, or the menu written in Chinese first and English second, and the restaurant is full of ethnics, you can bet that it's authentic and you should go in.

Another funny story: I went to a dim sum restaurant in Melbourne. The waitress pushing the cart asked each table in Mandarin what they would like from her trolley. When she came up to me, she said in English "what can I get for you today, Sir?". I was so offended! What is it about my appearance that makes her think I am not Chinese! I replied in Cantonese (because I was betting she wouldn't understand it) and then switched to Mandarin. That showed her!

 

[kongwee]

He is very entertaining, but I get bored very fast till I need to block his channel(dunno why YT keep pushing it).

 

[amirm]

Another funny story: I went to a dim sum restaurant in Melbourne. The waitress pushing the cart asked each table in Mandarin what they would like from her trolley. When she came up to me, she said in English "what can I get for you today, Sir?". I was so offended! What is it about my appearance that makes her think I am not Chinese! I replied in Cantonese (because I was betting she wouldn't understand it) and then switched to Mandarin. That showed her!

I always get better service and food when I bring my Chinese/Taiwanese friends over. Need something? They just raise their hand and kind of yell and server comes right over! Me? I struggle half the time trying to explain the dim sum I want!

 

[Keith_W]

I always get better service and food when I bring my Chinese/Taiwanese friends over. Need something? They just raise their hand and kind of yell and server comes right over! Me? I struggle half the time trying to explain the dim sum I want!

That reminds me of a time when I went for dim sum with a white friend. We arrived at the restaurant before opening time and we were the first in the queue (Google said opens 10am, but the restaurant opened at 10.30am). When the restaurant opened, a bunch of mainland Chinese people (you can tell because of their accent) rushed in front of us. My friend spoke in perfect Mandarin, "just because you are Chinese does not mean you can behave like barbarians". They were shocked and let us go in first.