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TOPPING MX3s

NoxMorbis said:
You did not. My mistake. I didn't see it expressed in the test in percent. The graph gave watts and THD+N, which confused me. Can you hear the difference between the two? I was thinking in terms of % but obviously I need to think better on the subject, since .02% 'seems' really low. The 08 Pro seems dirty now that you point it out like that, and I go back to the graph. Thanks for pointing this out.
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I haven't tried the A08 but I tried the A07, which appears near identical according to posted measurements. I haven't tried the MX3s either (yet), I'm waiting for my package to arrive from China.

Having tried the A07 though, I never noticed anything "wrong" about it. And yes, 0.02% THD+N at 1kHz is not bad at all, it's just that there's something better at a close price range. I wouldn't feel bad about buying an A08 for $108 vs buying an MX3s for $199 on measurements of amp performance alone. For some, the additional functionality of MX3s might be worth more than $100 even if MX3s was inferior. It's a slightly different story if you bought the A08 for $139 when MX3s was $169.

3% THD+N is considered very low for high-end speakers at low frequencies, which adds on top of the signal before you hear it. Now think about this, how different do you think is 3.00% from 3.02%? I wouldn't believe anyone saying that they can differentiate between 3.00% and 3.02% distortion/noise with their auditory system. 1% difference? Maybe. Electronic distortion/noise is mostly negligible compared to mechanical distortion introduced by transducers.

One thing I didn't like about the A07 was the very minor speaker buzz. It's not even an issue for most of the people, but I'm kinda obsessed about it. I don't want to be able to tell if my amp is on or off when I pause the music even by touching my earlobes to the driver cone, for my desktop stereo setup at least.

In my opinion once you draw the baseline with A07, the value of A08 is the design, VU meter, bass/treble controls and value of MX3s is the AIO functionality. I wouldn't worry about THD+N measurements until at least 1%.
 
Hatto said:
I haven't tried the A08 but I tried the A07, which appears near identical according to posted measurements. I haven't tried the MX3s either (yet), I'm waiting for my package to arrive from China.

Having tried the A07 though, I never noticed anything "wrong" about it. And yes, 0.02% THD+N at 1kHz is not bad at all, it's just that there's something better at a close price range. I wouldn't feel bad about buying an A08 for $108 vs buying an MX3s for $199 on measurements of amp performance alone. For some, the additional functionality of MX3s might be worth more than $100 even if MX3s was inferior. It's a slightly different story if you bought the A08 for $139 when MX3s was $169.

3% THD+N is considered very low for high-end speakers at low frequencies, which adds on top of the signal before you hear it. Now think about this, how different do you think is 3.00% from 3.02%? I wouldn't believe anyone saying that they can differentiate between 3.00% and 3.02% distortion/noise with their auditory system. 1% difference? Maybe. Electronic distortion/noise is mostly negligible compared to mechanical distortion introduced by transducers.

One thing I didn't like about the A07 was the very minor speaker buzz. It's not even an issue for most of the people, but I'm kinda obsessed about it. I don't want to be able to tell if my amp is on or off when I pause the music even by touching my earlobes to the driver cone, for my desktop stereo setup at least.

In my opinion once you draw the baseline with A07, the value of A08 is the design, VU meter, bass/treble controls and value of MX3s is the AIO functionality. I wouldn't worry about THD+N measurements until at least 1%.
Click to expand...
Thanks for explaining that. I got the 08 for 119.00 because I screwed around too long and missed the 112.00 price. They offerd a 20.00 off option a few days later, and snagged it. I have a problem now with the 199.00 MX3s. I would buy one right now for 169.00, and then decide which I want. I have until 04/23 to return the 08.

"One thing I didn't like about the A07 was the very minor speaker buzz. It's not even an issue for most of the people, but I'm kinda obsessed about it. I don't want to be able to tell if my amp is on or off when I pause the music even by touching my earlobes to the driver cone, for my desktop stereo setup at least." I know what you mean about stuff like that. Drives me nuts.

One thing that is confusing me for comparison sake is that you are converting the graph for the 08 Pro tested here on Audioscience, but the chart only gives it in dB and watts. How do I convert that to percentage so I can check out the differences better myself?

index.php
 
NoxMorbis said:
One thing that is confusing me for comparison sake is that you are converting the graph for the 08 Pro tested here on Audioscience, but the chart only gives it in dB and watts. How do I convert that to percentage so I can check out the differences better myself?


index.php
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dB = 20*log10(X) where X is given in fraction form of percentage (e.g 1% = 1/100 = 0.01)
Therefore;
X = 10^(dB/20)

However it's better to check out the differences in dB rather than %. When THD+N is expressed in terms of dB, we can easily determine how loud the distortion will be in our playback system. Loudness is useful information, and THD+N ratios are much more meaningful when they are expressed in the same logarithmic terms that we use to quantify loudness.

More here: https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/ap...preting-thd-measurements-think-db-not-percent
 
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Hatto said:
dB = 20*log10(X) where X is given in fraction form of percentage (e.g 1% = 1/100 = 0.01)
Therefore;
X = 10^(dB/20)

However it's better to check out the differences in dB rather than %. When THD+N is expressed in terms of dB, we can easily determine how loud the distortion will be in our playback system. Loudness is useful information, and THD+N ratios are much more meaningful when they are expressed in the same logarithmic terms that we use to quantify loudness.

More here: https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/ap...preting-thd-measurements-think-db-not-percent
Click to expand...
Got it, thanks. I was reading up on THD and how to think about it. Generally I've read where -80 is considered very good, but at what power levels and frequencies?
 
NoxMorbis said:
One thing I didn't like about the A07 was the very minor speaker buzz. It's not even an issue for most of the people, but I'm kinda obsessed about it. I don't want to be able to tell if my amp is on or off when I pause the music even by touching my earlobes to the driver cone, for my desktop stereo setup at least.
Click to expand...
Maybe it's just me, but I'm not really liking how the 08 Pro does higher frequencies. I think I'm hearing more harshness when it reproduces many cymbal tones, such as high hats, and even some female voices. But then some songs sound so beautiful, such as Benny and the Jets by Elton John. All of the bass lines, treble stuff, percussion, piano even, everything is perfect sounding. I mean I can hear the separation in the high hat and cymbals, that is, they sound like crashes, not hissing air, like they should. Strange.

I know there is an audio term for sounds not being consistent over different songs, but I can't remember it now. But I'm experiencing that with the 08 Pro, and it's frustrating.
 
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NoxMorbis said:
I know there is an audio term for sounds not being consistent over different songs, but I can't remember it now. But I'm experiencing that with the 08 Pro, and it's frustrating.
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It's called "revealing", as in revealing the original quality of the recordings. It's not a fault, it's an achievement. Transparent electroacoustic equipment decode signals in a faithful way without "masking" any faults, or harshness in the original recordings through noise or harmonics. The inconsistencies you're hearing are due to the differences between quality of recordings rather than equipment acting different for different audio tracks.

Rejoice! (And start looking for better quality recordings.)
 
Hatto said:
It's called "revealing", as in revealing the original quality of the recordings. It's not a fault, it's an achievement. Transparent electroacoustic equipment decode signals in a faithful way without "masking" any faults, or harshness in the original recordings through noise or harmonics. The inconsistencies you're hearing are due to the differences between quality of recordings rather than equipment acting different for different audio tracks.

Rejoice! (And start looking for better quality recordings.)
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I think it was a technical term used for actual testing of Class D amps. I just cannot bring it back from memory. It wasn't a subjective thing. I was reading about Class D design. Damn, sorry.

Also, I just read where THD+N isn't a very good way to test class D amps alone.

I'm interested in what you take of this:
"In other words, in the world of switching amplifiers, THD is at least not as relevant as other tests and at worst is totally irrelevant as a standard by which to evaluate the performance of a digital amplifier. In fact, most THD measurements of digital amplifiers are no more representative of sonic performance than wow and flutter measurements are of a CD player. . Dynamic Range: The Acid Test for Class D Amplifiers Dynamic range, or the ratio of the largest accurately amplified signal to the smallest, has never been more relevant than in today’s world of 16 to 24-bit digital audio sources." Source
 
NoxMorbis said:
Also, I just read where THD+N isn't a very good way to test class D amps alone.
Click to expand...
Let me rephrase it like this: THD+N alone isn't enough to determine class D amplifier performance as a whole. That's right.

NoxMorbis said:
I'm interested in what you take of this:
"In other words, in the world of switching amplifiers, THD is at least not as relevant as other tests and at worst is totally irrelevant as a standard by which to evaluate the performance of a digital amplifier.
Click to expand...
Hmmm, I wouldn't say totally irrelevant. As I mentioned before, there are some areas where it becomes really irrelevant:
"3% THD+N is considered very low for high-end speakers at low frequencies, which adds on top of the signal before you hear it. Now think about this, how different do you think is 3.00% from 3.02%? I wouldn't believe anyone saying that they can differentiate between 3.00% and 3.02% distortion/noise with their auditory system."
But in mid frequencies, THD+N of high-end speakers drop down to -46dB (0.5%) and then amplifier distortion might become comparable when it climbs around the same, even dominating if it rises any further.

NoxMorbis said:
In fact, most THD measurements of digital amplifiers are no more representative of sonic performance than wow and flutter measurements are of a CD player.
Click to expand...
Not sure what it means by that, but again, refer to the paragraph above.

NoxMorbis said:
Dynamic Range: The Acid Test for Class D Amplifiers Dynamic range, or the ratio of the largest accurately amplified signal to the smallest, has never been more relevant than in today’s world of 16 to 24-bit digital audio sources."
Click to expand...
True, but so what? As long as you're within power performance limits of the amplifier, the amplifier will amplify. Otherwise it'll clip. Clipping might be an issue for really low powered amplifiers like Schiit Rekkr (see: https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...te-new-schiit-speaker-amps.42329/post-1530067 for reference) or insanely loud listening levels.
I've read somewhere that Class D amps is that they don't have much headroom (or any at all some cases) to provide power for instantaneous spikes, which makes them more prone to clipping than similar powered Class AB amps.
Just as an example, in the post I linked above, Schiit Rekkr, which is a 2W(@8ohms) rated Class AB amp, can provide almost 10W of instantaneous power to avoid clipping.
I'm not sure if a class D amp rated at 50W can go over 55W at any time, or over 50.1W at all. But 50W is still more than enough power without any further headroom.
 
Hatto said:
Let me rephrase it like this: THD+N alone isn't enough to determine class D amplifier performance as a whole. That's right.


Hmmm, I wouldn't say totally irrelevant. As I mentioned before, there are some areas where it becomes really irrelevant:
"3% THD+N is considered very low for high-end speakers at low frequencies, which adds on top of the signal before you hear it. Now think about this, how different do you think is 3.00% from 3.02%? I wouldn't believe anyone saying that they can differentiate between 3.00% and 3.02% distortion/noise with their auditory system."
But in mid frequencies, THD+N of high-end speakers drop down to -46dB (0.5%) and then amplifier distortion might become comparable when it climbs around the same, even dominating if it rises any further.


Not sure what it means by that, but again, refer to the paragraph above.


True, but so what? As long as you're within power performance limits of the amplifier, the amplifier will amplify. Otherwise it'll clip. Clipping might be an issue for really low powered amplifiers like Schiit Rekkr (see: https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...te-new-schiit-speaker-amps.42329/post-1530067 for reference) or insanely loud listening levels.
I've read somewhere that Class D amps is that they don't have much headroom (or any at all some cases) to provide power for instantaneous spikes, which makes them more prone to clipping than similar powered Class AB amps.
Just as an example, in the post I linked above, Schiit Rekkr, which is a 2W(@8ohms) rated Class AB amp, can provide almost 10W of instantaneous power to avoid clipping.
I'm not sure if a class D amp rated at 50W can go over 55W at any time, or over 50.1W at all. But 50W is still more than enough power without any further headroom.
Click to expand...
Really learning a lot, thanks. Yes, I understand the headroom argument, agree. I just assume with a Class D you want to keep continuous the power at half or lower. I had a look at the Aiyima 07 frequency vs power. It is better than the 08.
 
Hatto said:
I've read somewhere that Class D amps is that they don't have much headroom (or any at all some cases) to provide power for instantaneous spikes, which makes them more prone to clipping than similar powered Class AB amps.
Just as an example, in the post I linked above, Schiit Rekkr, which is a 2W(@8ohms) rated Class AB amp, can provide almost 10W of instantaneous power to avoid clipping.
I'm not sure if a class D amp rated at 50W can go over 55W at any time, or over 50.1W at all. But 50W is still more than enough power without any further headroom.
Click to expand...
I got this from ChatGPT: "Some Class D amplifiers may also have built-in protection circuits that can detect and limit the amplitude of instantaneous musical spikes to prevent clipping and potential damage to the amplifier or speakers. . ."

Does the Texas instruments 3255 amplifier chip have built in spike protection for clipping?

"Yes, the Texas Instruments TPA3255 amplifier chip does have built-in spike protection to prevent clipping and potential damage to the amplifier or speakers.
The TPA3255 chip includes a range of protection features, including over-current protection, over-temperature protection, and DC speaker protection. In addition, the chip has a built-in limiter to prevent clipping by dynamically adjusting the gain of the amplifier in response to the input signal level. The limiter works by reducing the gain of the amplifier when the input signal level exceeds a certain threshold, preventing the signal from reaching the maximum output level of the amplifier.
The TPA3255 chip also includes a range of diagnostic and monitoring features, including DC offset detection, fault reporting, and thermal monitoring, which can help to improve the reliability and safety of the amplifier. Overall, the TPA3255 chip is designed to provide high-quality audio performance while ensuring the safety and protection of the amplifier and speakers."

LOL. Wow. Still doesn't tell us how it is implemented and when I asked about the 08 Pro, it said it didn't know because the specifications information is not available.
 
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You'd be better reading the datasheet than relying on ChatGPT as it's making stuff up. The datasheet does tell you how the protection is implemented, what happens during clipping, and exactly which cause of DC offset it protects against.
 
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guddu said:
Quite an All-in-One unit, may be intended for desktop use but Too low power specs may be !!!
Something similar with 2 x MA12070 or TPA3250/3255 could be amazing!
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Twice the power would only raise the loudness by 3dB.
 
Hatto said:
DX3 Pro+ is a more versatile product in my opinion. It can be used as pure DAC, pre-amp and headphone amp, whereas MX3s is an AIO stereo amp with an afterthought headphone stage. While both offer great capability with small footprint, DX3 Pro+ has top of the line DAC and HPA performance. It all depends on your listening habits prioritization:
Listening to headphones often >>> DX3 Pro+
Active speakers >>> DX3 Pro+
Need analog outputs >>> DX3 Pro+
Need analog inputs >>> MX3s
Passive Speakers >>> MX3s
You already have a DX3 Pro+ and just need a matching stereo amp >>> PA3S ($126: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09LCTYHKQ)
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No sub out option :(
 
After reevaluating my power needs and the stellar performance of the MX3s 9on papaer) @ 23 watts per channel @ 8 Ohms, I am really interested in this amp. I wish it would get tested ASAP!
 
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