Topping E50 into L30 II (unbalanced) & L50 (balanced) - Different sound. Why?

[Lambo1985]

Hi, I'm just curious to know why a source fed by an E50 into both an L30 II (unbalanced) & L50 (balanced) sounds different. L30 II sounds more compressed, and the L50 sounds more open. According to specs, they should sound the same, but they don't. Can it be an unbalanced vs balanced thing?

 

[RayDunzl]

Perhaps a 6dB volume difference, if the balanced presents twice the voltage of the unbalanced.

Is one louder than the other?

Try turning up the volume of the one that sounds "compressed" and see how they compare.

I use a 6dB cut at my preamp to allow balanced vs unbalanced inputs to output the same level.

 

[DVDdoug]

The only way you accidentally get dynamic compression is with clipping (overload distortion). That's probably not happening. I have no idea what "open" is.

Generally, "louder sounds better" so when you're doing an A/B (or ABX*) test the levels have to be matched.

If there is ANY defect or difference in sound quality it would almost certainly be noise (hum or hiss in the background). Frequency response and distortion are usually better than human hearing unless something is over-driven into clipping.




* In an ABX test you aren't trying to determine if one is "better", you are just trying to determine if you can reliably hear any difference. And if there is a difference in loudness it's easy to identify "X".

 

[Lambo1985]

Volume is matched, and yes, I am referring to dynamic compression ("open" meaning less compressed). There is definitely a difference in sound. It's not my imagination. I don't have any bias, either way. The balanced/L50 connection sounds less compressed with program material (well produced Rock & Electronic music 24/48, used to test). Can there be another reason other than clipping (It's definitely not clipping)?

 

[dc655321]

Volume is matched

How have you done this?

I don't have any bias

Ah, irony!
I joke. But, that’s not something one can shut off. Control for, yes.

 

[Lambo1985]

How have you done this?



Ah, irony!
I joke. But, that’s not something one can shut off. Control for, yes.

I checked with a Meterk MK09 Sound Level Meter (1khz test tone matched to approximate Db).

And yes. Though I may not have any conscious bias, I am fully aware of my "unconscious" bias. I had to do diversity, equity, and inclusion training at my job. I am a sinner and even when I think I'm a good person, deep down I know that I am a VERY bad man! - I atone for my transgressions on a daily basis.

 

[dc655321]

checked with a Meterk MK09 Sound Level Meter (1khz test tone matched to approximate Db).

Sinner or not, you should check the voltages, not the sound levels. That’s likely not precise enough.

Kudos for trying for some kind of controls though.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Repeating another post. WHY does everyone jump to get an SPL meter to match levels? Much too imprecise.

Measure voltages at the speaker inputs and match to within 1% on voltage with a test tone. A db or even half db mismatch is plenty to make one sound a bit more open and dynamic when it is nothing except a volume difference. Minor volume mismatches sound the same volume, and instead sound like slightly different quality with the louder one sounding better.

 

[Lambo1985]

Repeating another post. WHY does everyone jump to get an SPL meter to match levels? Much too imprecise.

Measure voltages at the speaker inputs and match to within 1% on voltage with a test tone. A db or even half db mismatch is plenty to make one sound a bit more open and dynamic when it is nothing except a volume difference. Minor volume mismatches sound the same volume, and instead sound like slightly different quality with the louder one sounding better.

All I need is an approximation. I'm using headphones. So that eliminates room inflections and environmental influence. My ears are really good, and I trust them. I know when something sounds different than the other. In my case, the "louder" one sounds worse. It is louder because it's more compressed/dense. However, the quieter/more dynamic one sounds better. Go figure...

 

[staticV3]

L30 II sounds more compressed

The L30 II does not compress sound. It's perfectly linear:


If you feel otherwise, then please provide proof upon which we can have a meaningful discussion. Here's one way how:

Though measurements would be preferred.

 

[Lambo1985]

I was just hoping someone could provide a possible explanation for what I'm experiencing. I'm not implying that anything is wrong with the gear. Maybe what I'm hearing or feeling is crosstalk or noise. Maybe I'm just hearing things. May the measurement gods forgive me. As I learn, I will endeavor to remain incandescent.

 

[staticV3]

"I want someone else to prove what I'm hearing" just is not the right mindset for ASR.

 

[half_dog]

"I want someone else to prove what I'm hearing" just is not the right mindset for ASR.

Maybe he has got a "defective" E30II. One of my D10s was "strange". Any signal over -10 to -8 dBFS would cause some saturation, subtle for my ear but really measurable (by my 10y now US 366) - distortion went high above -8dBFS. Because I usually atenuante the signal digitally (on Foobar2000) it took some time be discovered. I've never found out exactly what was causing it. My current D10s has not such problem. @Lambo1985 have you tried others mobile chargers?

 

[half_dog]

Forget my last comment. I read it wrong.

 

[oleg87]

I can't think of a mechanism by which it could sound "compressed" without sounding distorted. It's not a studio compressor - if it runs out of headroom, it's going to add gobs of nasty narmonics.

 

[GXAlan]

Everyone is jumping on @Lambo1985 when he is asking a genuine question.

I have shown that my Topping D50s measures nothing like Amir's, while my Panasonic UB9000 measures exactly like Amir's. There is more variability with the Topping setup than there is with the Panasonic setup.

I have shown that even the D90 is subject to positioning where placing it on top of an unplugged amplifier can affect its measurements.

Measured effect of cable routing/component placement

In DIY amplifier kits, there is often talk of cable routing and effects on measured performance. Here I would like to show the difference with real, premium electronics using worst case topologies. Test Setup Topping D90 MQA Belden 8423 0.8m XLR balanced cable Marantz PM-10 integrated amp...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I have even shown how two well performing DACs on a 1kHz SINAD can have differences that reach audible difference thresholds with music:

Two reasonable DACs with a large PK Metric when tested with real music...

I've previously shown that my SA-11s2 and Panasonic UB9000 sound similarly and measure similarly with DeltaWave. In this post, I'm sharing some preliminary data showing a) a measurable PK Metric difference between two reasonable DACs with real music b) the DAC with a ~10 dB worse 1 kHz SINAD...

www.audiosciencereview.com

--------------
But to answer your question, @Lambo1985, it's going to be really hard to answer your question. The default response here, as you have seen, is to assume that you're wrong. My experience tells me that the only way to answer your question is to get involved with your own testing. You may have a defective L30 or L50. Your electrical environment may be different. The only way to know is to measure it.

No one has identified an error in testing where I show the SA-10 providing a BETTER match to the DSD music file than a D90 even though the SA-10 measures worse for a 1 kHz test tone. It suggests that while the SA-10 and D90 differ minimally from the digital source, they differ in such "directions" that the SA-10 and D90 reach the threshold of audibility when compared directly.

LAST, there is a big difference between measuring into a resistor versus a speaker load. You have to treat this with a grain of salt but it does show how one unit measures one way into a resistor versus a real load. I don't agree that SINAD is useless, it's one of the best proxy measurements we have, but it may not be fully representative of your own setup.

But I will say in my own experience, the Marantz PM-11s2 measures better than the PM-10, electrically, when tested into a resistor, but the PM-10 measures better than the PM-11s2 when tested into even a simple speaker like the JBL Studio 530. Your headphones may challenge one of those Topping units in a different way.

The E1DA Cosmos is your cheapest entry into a measuring device, but the RME ADI Pro is going to be better overall. The E1DA has a lot of DC which makes it good for full volume testing, but not for low signal testing.

 

[Lambo1985]

Thank you @GXAlan - I appreciate the comprehensive and informative reply. I've learned my lesson, and will not be asking any similar questions again on this forum.

 

[jdoe]

Hi @Lambo1985, maybe it is too late to reply, but afaik L30II and L50 have different crosstalk (-90db for L30II and -120db for L50). This could be the reason why L50 sounds slightly more open.