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Topping E30 DAC Review

Robbo99999

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Thanks for the info!

Looking at the calculator, doing some testing and math, it seems like the PW Link is limited past 1.5v or so (-3db). It's start distorting bad at about -1db on DAC.
Give it a little bit of headroom rather than cutting it too fine, because you might not be able to always correctly recognise the distortion in your listening tests, whilst perhaps still having some distortion & degrading your sound, which might decrease your enjoyment of it even if you can't directly recognise distortion in your listening tests at that level.
 

Peen

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Give it a little bit of headroom rather than cutting it too fine, because you might not be able to always correctly recognise the distortion in your listening tests, whilst perhaps still having some distortion & degrading your sound, which might decrease your enjoyment of it even if you can't directly recognise distortion in your listening tests at that level.

Was thinking the same thing. I think I can hear distortion at -3, but don't hear any at -5 but possible is there. Your suggestion of -7 seems about right. Do dacs not work well when they are not at 100%? Like for example, I set dac to -20 (.21v) and just turn up amp. Assuming it should theoretically measure better then the Apple dongle with E30 volume down, even though the dongle reviewed well.
 
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samsa

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Do dacs not work well when they are not at 100%? Assuming it should theoretically measure better then the Apple dongle, even though that reviewed well.

6 dB is 1 bit of resolution.

More generally, with digital volume attenuation (as in the E30 volume control), the noise does not diminish when you decrease the gain, but the signal does. So the SNR does go down. But, given that you're decreasing the distortion in your audio chain, your net SINAD is going up.

Said differently, the E30 is orders-of-magnitude away from being the limiting factor in the SQ of the signal chain you described. You would need to replace everything else in your signal chain with higher-quality gear before running the E30 at -7 dB made a measurable (let alone audible) contribution to the noise. Of course, once you did that, you wouldn't have to run the E30 at -7 dB, rendering the whole discussion moot.

P.S.: From your mention of the Apple dongle, I surmise you're using some sort of Macintosh as a source? If so, then you could do TOSLink from the Mac to the PW Link, skipping an entire round of digital→analog→digital conversions, and thereby instantly improving the SQ of your audio chain. Of course, then you'd have to find some other use for the E30 ...
 
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Robbo99999

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Was thinking the same thing. I think I can hear distortion at -3, but don't hear any at -5 but possible is there. Your suggestion of -7 seems about right. Do dacs not work well when they are not at 100%? Like for example, I set dac to -20 (.21v) and just turn up amp. Assuming it should theoretically measure better then the Apple dongle with E30 volume down, even though the dongle reviewed well.
Well, people come to different conclusions about whether you get best performance at 100% volume or not. There is some evidence & science behind running something like 97% windows volume rather than 100% on pretty much all DACS (delta-sigma type DACS). Also some DACS perform worse close to 100% output as can be seen in Amir's reviews. But music is not coded for a 100% signal all the time, so you're not always at 100% full signal, but you are bound to be at least some of the time. With the E30 DAC there's no point in running a huge offset of volume - I'd generally recommend just 97% on the Windows Volume Slider due to delta-sigma DAC, and then in your case you have the clipping issue due to what you're attaching it to, so in your case I'd just run -7dB to keep it at the same level as your apple dongle, and I would say that's for sure enough headroom over your tests too. (Run your DAC in 24bit mode to ensure volume decrease doesn't result in loss of dynamic range.....although if you're doing most of the attenuation in the DAC itself whilst it's in pre-amp mode it's possible that it's internal volume control might operate at 32bit or something even if you have windows at 16bit which would be fine, but no downside to setting windows to 24bit).
 

Tup3x

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Oh well... I cave in and ordered black E30. Next step is L30.
 

solderdude

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measurements suggets distortion is low right up to 0dBFS. Certainly not audible in any way.
When you do hear distortion it comes from something else than the DAC.

What the measurements don't show is how well it handles intersample overs.
For this you will need a special waveform and a 'scope' shot.
To be sure that is handled well you can set the max. volume level to -6dB assuming digital attenuation before it goes into the DAC.
 

Tup3x

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I've also just placed an order on shenzhenaudio.com, now thingers crossed that I wouldn't get stung by customs! :cool:
I know mine will not - there's importer now for Topping stuff here in Finland so 129,99 € inc. 24% VAT. :cool:
 

LMW

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Your miles may vary. But maybe you were lucky. I've had occasions too where I did not pay anything extra with an Amazon order (also from Shenzen). On other occasions with Amazon (also from Shenzen) I had to pay extra fees to DHL and import rights to the Netherlands, but it is not a given. It is just how lucky you are with border checks etc. By the way: it is not all included upfront in the price on Amazon. Read Amazon's fineprint about delivery from third parties ;).

There are lots of known cases where people (also UK) had to pay extra import fees and even VAT etc. when ordering via a third party with Amazon. Next time when you order, your direct experience may differ ;)

I ordered mine directly from Shenzhen Audio to Canada and did not pay any duties or taxes. Postal left it right outside my apartment door. I was expecting to at least pay taxes. Using for a couple of weeks now. Anyway I have been using USB with new firmware and Coaxial and love this dac. Listened to a DSD64 file on USB and fantastic sound quality. Coaxial is excellent as well although I am just listening to youtube through blu ray player so not reaching the full potential of coaxial, except I did listen to CD's through the blu ray player but the CD quality on some of my CD's are lacking..
 

Kane1972

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hifistudio79 and Audiophonics are both out of stock. I now like the idea of a 2 year warranty where I'd only need to return it to Europe, rather than 6 months warranty (if lucky) and having to ship back to China.

Any other places in Europe selling it?
 

tankas

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Any other places in Europe selling it?
Authorized dealers:

France
Audiophonics
Audiophonics.fr

Netherlands
Hifistudio79
www.hifistudio79.nl
[email protected]
salamandersloot 19
2724ba
Zoetermeer
The Netherlands

Poland
Audiomagic
audiomagic.pl

Romania
AV Sound Company SRL
Strada Acvila nr 41, Sector 5
Bucuresti 050862, Romania
www.avmall.ro / [email protected]
Tel: +4 0721 429 099, +4 0749 429 099

Italy
Audio Azimuth
Distribution:
www.audioazimuth.it
[email protected]
Online shop:
www.playstereo.com
[email protected]

Denmark
Rabu Acoustics
rabu-acoustics.dk
 

Kane1972

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Authorized dealers:

France
Audiophonics
Audiophonics.fr

Netherlands
Hifistudio79
www.hifistudio79.nl
[email protected]
salamandersloot 19
2724ba
Zoetermeer
The Netherlands

Poland
Audiomagic
audiomagic.pl

Romania
AV Sound Company SRL
Strada Acvila nr 41, Sector 5
Bucuresti 050862, Romania
www.avmall.ro / [email protected]
Tel: +4 0721 429 099, +4 0749 429 099

Italy
Audio Azimuth
Distribution:
www.audioazimuth.it
[email protected]
Online shop:
www.playstereo.com
[email protected]

Denmark
Rabu Acoustics
rabu-acoustics.dk

thanks but either out of stock or don’t have the E30 on their site.
 

Quomz

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thanks but either out of stock or don’t have the E30 on their site.
audiophonics.fr lists the silver E30 as "In Stock", and the black one seems to be "Available on order" (as I understand in 15- 25 days).

Aditionally to the pages listed Shenzen Audio sells it on Amazon (at least on the german Amazon.de). Delivery time is beginning to mid August though.
 

yodog

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Just wanted to say, I have the E30 with the serial number starting with 2006 and Im very happy with how it sounds. It is my first standalone DAC and it was money well spent.

I just can’t settle on which filter mode to “set it and forget it” on. I wish they made a “medium roll off” or something in between filters 1/3 and 2/4.

but other then that I am happy and I am very happy you can change the filter setting via the remote. I do notice a small but sharp (but also seems semi harmless) pop every once in a while if playing music while changing the filter mode, not sure if this is normal. Does anyone else have minor issue too?
 

Tup3x

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voodooless

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102 pages of indescribable ... Oh man, what a ride it was... Anyway... Ordered the E30 2 days ago from Audiophonics, should be arriving today.

I'm really wondering why Topping chose the 2 MCU design? They clearly can modify the code of the Xmos code themselves if they can release a inversion fix within 2 days of reporting the "issue". The Xmos is a very capable CPU, it should have been no problem whatsoever to also have it control the dac, screen, remote and buttons.

BTW, regarding digital volume control. One thing nobody mentioned here is dithering. Instead of throwing away bits, when you lower the volume, what actually happens is that dithering is used to preserve some of the resolution by adding a bit of random (or noise shaped) noise and "encoding" the rounding errors from the attenuation into them. It's not magic, and you raise the noise floor tiny bit, but it will preserve waveform quite well. Best dithering uses noise shaping to push the noise up in frequency, and therefore making it inaudible. the perceived noise is then not even raised, but you do retain more resolution. Since a 24 bit DAC optimally has about 20 to 21 bit of actual content in them, one can easily use 1 tot 4 bits for dithering.

Obligatory cat image:
eUBVC.png

This is how it works on images with only a 1 bit. If you have a LCD screen, chances are you've been looking at a dithered screen for years. Most screens are only actually 6 bit per color, and are dithered to 8.. or 8 is dithered to 10 bit. Did you ever notice the noise?

DSD is also just a form of dithering btw. If you look at the SNR vs frequency graphs of a DSD signal you'll clearly see that the dithering noise is pushed far up in frequency.
 
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JohnYang1997

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102 pages of indescribable ... Oh man, what a ride it was... Anyway... Ordered the E30 2 days ago from Audiophonics, should be arriving today.

I'm really wondering why Topping chose the 2 MCU design? They clearly can modify the code of the Xmos code themselves if they can release a inversion fix within 2 days of reporting the "issue". The Xmos is a very capable CPU, it should have been no problem whatsoever to also have it control the dac, screen, remote and buttons.

BTW, regarding digital volume control. One thing nobody mentioned here is dithering. Instead of throwing away bits, when you lower the volume, what actually happens is that dithering is used to preserve some of the resolution by adding a bit of random (or noise shaped) noise and "encoding" the rounding errors from the attenuation into them. It's not magic, and you raise the noise floor tiny bit, but it will preserve waveform quite well. Best dithering uses noise shaping to push the noise up in frequency, and therefore making it inaudible. the perceived noise is then not even raised, but you do retain more resolution. Since a 24 bit DAC optimally has about 20 to 21 bit of actual content in them, one can easily use 1 tot 4 bits for dithering.

Obligatory cat image:
eUBVC.png

This is how it works on images with only a 1 bit. If you have a LCD screen, chances are you've been looking at a dithered for years. Most screens are only actually 6 bit per color, and are dithered to 8.. or 8 is dithered to 10 bit. Did you ever notice the noise?

DSD is also just a form of dithering btw. If you look at the SNR vs frequency graphs of a DSD signal you'll clearly see that the dithering noise is pushed far up in frequency.
You always lose SNR(equivalent of "bits") when turning down volume digitally. (Except for ess but that's a different story). Noise doesn't get attenuated, the signal does. Hence less resolution.
On the 2MCU design I definitely don't know what you are saying.. Are you saying XMOS can take the place of the separate MCU? There are only limited number of pins. That's why you need to use extra MCU sometimes.
 

voodooless

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You always lose SNR(equivalent of "bits") when turning down volume digitally. (Except for ess but that's a different story). Noise doesn't get attenuated, the signal does. Hence less resolution.

I never said that you would not lose SNR, and I never said you would not lose resolution. I just mentioned that you do not lose as much as one would think with dithering. You get back some of it (although it is frequency dependant).

On the 2MCU design I definitely don't know what you are saying.. Are you saying XMOS can take the place of the separate MCU? There are only limited number of pins. That's why you need to use extra MCU sometimes.

Yes lack of IO's might be the reasoning. Let's see:

STM8S005C6 has 48 pins of which 38 are actual IO's
XMOS XU208 has 48 pins of which 27 are actual IO's

So, yes that is about 10 IO's less. However I don't think the STM8 used all IO, and neither does the XMOS. And you could use a simple IO expander to add more if needed. However cost wise however, it might not be that much of a price difference vs the cheap STM8.

At the very least I would have made different choices in regards to task division of the two. Would have been better to let the MCU control only the physical IO's (button, screen, IR), and let the XMOS be the puppetmaster to control all of it. That way you can change all of the functionality by updating the XMOS. Another option could have been to make the XMOS update the STM8. A simple serial line and some firmware would be enough to make that happen. It will however add development time. Which could be the reason they left it out.

Anyway, many design decisions that could have been made, and possibly there are very good reasons why they didn't make them.. I don't know, I just find it interesting to see what other options there would have been. And if course it always easy to stand on the sideline and be critical ;)
 
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