Topping D90SE Review (Balanced DAC)

[G-rig]

Agree it's not ideal, still nice playing my own flac collection knowing I've ripped and tagged it meticulously. I know a lot of rme owners hate it.
Anyway Qobuz is promising got the trial , can't even connect to volumio so not a good start. Tidal is cheap as if you live in the right country. Not going to buy a non MQA DAC anyway.

 

[rlwings]

Hey guys. I made an interesting discovery about the D90SE getting so hot... When I first set it up it got really hot... But after I changed filters from the default "3" to "7" the heat decreased by a very significant amount... Try it for an hour or so. Maybe I'm crazy, I don't know.... Note: I'm running USB to RCA in preamp mode at the 5V setting and 176.4khz\32bit.

Would different filters produce different temps?? Maybe that's why Amir noticed that filter 7 was the best. (Maybe the extra heat generated from the other filters is indicative of problematic filter implementation causing electrical issues which negatively impacted the measurements).

 

[Harmonie]

Please don't support this scam called MQA.

I'm sooo happy to have the D90 with no letters behind, seems that it will be a rare collector item and worth its gold ...

 

[G-rig]

If you were buying a new one would you buy it again or a newer model? Annoying when the logo is plastered over everything but good another codec is supported.

Anyway, depends what streaming softwear you use - if it's not Tidal then it doesn't matter .

 

[rlwings]

I'm sooo happy to have the D90 with no letters behind, seems that it will be a rare collector item and worth its gold ...

LOl, I think it might be the other way around. The MQA version will become the collector's item. :}

 

[G-rig]

Bit like DVDs you Think?

I'm testing out Qobuz as well, there is some nice stuff on there for sure at 192kHz. I prefer the the general UI and much bigger library on Tidal (and as long as it's still 3$ in Argentina I'll be using it). I noticed Qobuz just increased their prices too. Still can't get it connected using volumio. Also, try asking Google to play something on Qobuz.. I'm not even sure how to say it. Edit: It turns out there is no output devices for Qubuz in Volumio because it doesn't exist - bit useless to use it then, probably works fine for Roon users.

The test Will be if brands like RME add support in their new line ups, some manufacturers have no intent of doing so which is fair, but I'm not going to buy one that doesn't support it , for now. SMSL D1se is looking good, great sound regardless apparently.

 

[G-rig]

Are you aware that Tidal compresses FLAC, WAV, AIFF and CD, LP sources with obvious data loss and serves them on a silver platter called MQA?
It is not a question of hating MQA files, but disappointment to see people fooled by so much publicity!

This user puts it in perspective:
Look, regardless of what you feel about MQA's business model, AN MQA FILE CONTAINS MORE SONIC INFORMATION THAN A CD EQUIVALENT. It's lossless up to and slightly beyond CD-quality. Only the high res component is lossy, which is harmless. There is very, very little energy in that range, most of it being high frequency noise and meaningless. In other words, in the very least it is superior to CD-quality. Whether or not it's superior to standard high res PCM will come down to whether or not you believe MQA's claims about better time domain performance.

MQA is it possible? (Page 1) — ADI-2 & 2/4 Pro series, ADI-2 DAC series — RME User Forum

 

[Rottmannash]

This user puts it in perspective:
Look, regardless of what you feel about MQA's business model, AN MQA FILE CONTAINS MORE SONIC INFORMATION THAN A CD EQUIVALENT. It's lossless up to and slightly beyond CD-quality. Only the high res component is lossy, which is harmless. There is very, very little energy in that range, most of it being high frequency noise and meaningless. In other words, in the very least it is superior to CD-quality. Whether or not it's superior to standard high res PCM will come down to whether or not you believe MQA's claims about better time domain performance.

MQA is it possible? (Page 1) — ADI-2 & 2/4 Pro series, ADI-2 DAC series — RME User Forum

Um, pretty sure that's not true.

 

[G-rig]

It's hard to know either way unless there is some proper documentation on how it actually works, and tests etc.
Anyway, to me it sounds at least as good but sonically better than CD, but who knows.

 

[JJB70]

MQA might have made sense in bandwidth limited streaming systems and the era of expensive memory, now at best it is an answer looking for a question and at worst an outright scam. Personally I think the sooner it exits the stage the better.

 

[G-rig]

yeah time will tell, just like other formats.. it seems more mainstream now than OGG and Media Monkey etc (albeit it it's not a codec).

Either way, if you were buying a new DAC would you spend $$'s on a DAC that doesn't support it (ie D90 v D70SE v D90SE)?
I'm still keen to upgrade my desktop/headphone setup at some point and would still get a RME ADI2 DACFS, but for now upgrading my DAC Magic+CCA to a RPi4 based streamer (Volumio/Tidal) and new DAC.

What would be more helpful is if all the extra tidbits are a waste of money - law of diminishing returns is fairly agreessive with the addition of:

- DIgital to Digital Converters: eg. Audioquest Dragonfly Red
- Pi2AES hat (keen on A2S to SMSL VMV D1se (or similar)
- an iFi power x to power the RPI4 board, and a meanwell 24vdc supply for the PI2aes.

Cheers

 

[kchap]

This user puts it in perspective:
Look, regardless of what you feel about MQA's business model, AN MQA FILE CONTAINS MORE SONIC INFORMATION THAN A CD EQUIVALENT. It's lossless up to and slightly beyond CD-quality. Only the high res component is lossy, which is harmless. There is very, very little energy in that range, most of it being high frequency noise and meaningless. In other words, in the very least it is superior to CD-quality. Whether or not it's superior to standard high res PCM will come down to whether or not you believe MQA's claims about better time domain performance.

MQA is it possible? (Page 1) — ADI-2 & 2/4 Pro series, ADI-2 DAC series — RME User Forum

My understanding is that MQA is lossy. I takes the 2 LSBs from the 16/44.1 signal to encode the MQA data. If you are processing an MQA signal with a non-MQA device the signal is reduced to 14 bits.

 

[G-rig]

Ok. Choice of streaming service aside, any advice on the previous questions for the setup?
All that crap probably isn't necessary but interested to know. I assume people are going for the very best possible setup (whether you can hear it or not) but still like these bang for buck projects. CHeers,

 

[kchap]

Ok. Choice of streaming service aside, any advice on the previous questions for the setup?
All that crap probably isn't necessary but interested to know. I assume people are going for the very best possible setup (whether you can hear it or not) but still like these bang for buck projects. CHeers,

I use the the RPI4 with USB DACs. The Pi2AES is a good unit but it still needs to feed an external DAC. I use a Khadas Toneboard and a Topping D10B. The RME is also very good, has USB input and external power; less load on the RPI.

The RPI4 has limited power to share about and Pi2AES needs a higher voltage than the standard 5.1 V unit but using 'low noise' linear PSUs do not seem to offer any advantage. The main question is, have you got enough power?

 

[G-rig]

So at the moment I'm using a 5V/3A (Pixel PD 'fast' charger), which meets the requirements as far as I know to power just he RPi4. How clean the signal is, who knows. Running through off a surge power board with plenty of other stuff plugged in.

Happy to not worry about the Pi2AES (being discontinued and US$200 is a bit rich + case + psu). Rather stick to USB as you are, my old DAC has USB input and sounds pretty good already. So if anything would consider adding necessary filters for the power and/or USB connection if it makes a difference (not sure if something like those iFi power x adapters are a waste of money or not - could be made for countries with less than good power supply).

ps. Already got a DAC with USB but looking at upgrading that.

Thanks,

 

[kchap]

So at the moment I'm using a 5V/3A (Pixel PD 'fast' charger), which meets the requirements as far as I know to power just he RPi4. How clean the signal is, who knows. Running through off a surge power board with plenty of other stuff plugged in.

Happy to not worry about the Pi2AES (being discontinued and US$200 is a bit rich + case + psu). Rather stick to USB as you are, my old DAC has USB input and sounds pretty good already. So if anything would consider adding necessary filters for the power and/or USB connection if it makes a difference (not sure if something like those iFi power x adapters are a waste of money or not - could be made for countries with less than good power supply).

Thanks,

Your DAC magic is getting a bit old so I'm not sure if noise/interference will be a problem. Try it before you buy a new PSU. All the DACs that have been reviewed and recommended in ASR this year seem to work brilliantly with the bog standard PSU.

I'll throw a question back at you. Will the RPI4 have extras like an OLED display or external HDD/SSD?

 

[G-rig]

Your DAC magic is getting a bit old so I'm not sure if noise/interference will be a problem. Try it before you buy a new PSU. All the DACs that have been reviewed and recommended in ASR this year seem to work brilliantly with the bog standard PSU.

I'll throw a question back at you. Will the RPI4 have extras like an OLED display or external HDD/SSD?

Agreed, which is why it's time for an upgrade - main goals being:
- Hi res playback from Tidal over 44.1kHz, >= 192kHz using other sources (Qobuz etc)
- DAC with a volume control (was using a nano-patch gain control between DAC & Active monitors, so one set of XLR is better)
- Gapless playback (solved with RPi)

I currently have the RPi4 connected with USB to the DAC magic and it's sounding good (similar or better than CCA via Optical, although that still sounds great at 96kHz trialling Qobuz). There is the usual monitor hiss but nothing obvious I'd worry about - before reading on all the gizmos and jitter.

A 7" touch screen would be fun but I don't think I'll bother when can control via phone & Volumio web interface (and the player app of choice)
I had the pi connected to the tv via HDMI adapter+cable and there was a horrid ground loop. Luckily went away after unplugging and to be honest don't need it plugged in anyway. I'd like to get my Flac library on a ssd/hdd plugged into the pi, to act as a media streamer as it's sitting there.

FWIW I agree that you shouldn't need all the other stuff with a decent DAC as they should be capable of managing noise and jitter from inputs like USB/digital. I tested an SMSL Su-9 which sounded better than my old DAC, couldn't test MQA at the time with only CCA. There was a small pop powering on/off and drivers didn't work with win 10 at all so sent it back to Amazon (heard about the third harmony distortion issue and was obviously old stock). Waiting for a refund but keen on the smsl VMV D1se, Topping D70SE/D90SE or X16. Apparently the D1SE is very nice sound and musical.

Just keen to sort this out
ps. Probably pay for Volumio however noticed there is no support for Qobuz Connect for the RPi, won't bother getting that but it does sound good.

 

[kchap]

Agreed, which is why it's time for an upgrade - main goals being:
- Hi res playback from Tidal over 44.1kHz, >= 192kHz using other sources (Qobuz etc)
- DAC with a volume control (was using a nano-patch gain control between DAC & Active monitors, so one set of XLR is better)
- Gapless playback (solved with RPi)

I currently have the RPi4 connected with USB to the DAC magic and it's sounding good (similar or better than CCA via Optical, although that still sounds great at 96kHz trialling Qobuz). There is the usual monitor hiss but nothing obvious I'd worry about - before reading on all the gizmos and jitter.

A 7" touch screen would be fun but I don't think I'll bother when can control via phone & Volumio web interface (and the player app of choice)
I had the pi connected to the tv via HDMI adapter+cable and there was a horrid ground loop. Luckily went away after unplugging and to be honest don't need it plugged in anyway. I'd like to get my Flac library on a ssd/hdd plugged into the pi, to act as a media streamer as it's sitting there.

FWIW I agree that you shouldn't need all the other stuff with a decent DAC as they should be capable of managing noise and jitter from inputs like USB/digital. I tested an SMSL Su-9 which sounded better than my old DAC, couldn't test MQA at the time with only CCA. There was a small pop powering on/off and drivers didn't work with win 10 at all so sent it back to Amazon (heard about the third harmony distortion issue and was obviously old stock). Waiting for a refund but keen on the smsl VMV D1se, Topping D70SE/D90SE or X16. Apparently the D1SE is very nice sound and musical.

Just keen to sort this out

As the RPi will be using Linux, the drivers should not be an issue. The pop on powering up/down is usually down to the designer muting outputs. My D10B does a nice job of muting the output. The Khadas does not.

The only issue is power consumption. Is you have an eternal SSD/HDD it might be safer to stick with DACs that have external power or and an SSD USB hub combo that has external power. I'm not saying you will have problems but you need to aware. If weird things start happening with your RPi, it could be a power problem.

Any USB DAC that got a thumbs up in the last year should be okay from a noise and distortion perspective. Some will be better than others but you will not hear the difference. The only decision is features, looks and usability. In the main it will be your taste.

• Do you need MQA?
  Balanced or un-balanced out? Do not worry TRS versus XLR, it will not change the sound.
• Do you need a headphone output?
• Volume control?
• Do you need a display?
• Remote control?
• When you read the review thread were there a lot of complaints about the remote being unreliable, the channels not being matched at low volume settings or the menu being fiddly? Things like that might not show till a week or so after review.
• Be suspicious of people that mention 'sound stage' or more 'musical'. DACs these day will tend to sound the same. They are all getting too good.
• Do you like the colour?
• Do you like the knobs.
• Do you like the price.
• R2R DACs tend to be more expensive and have less performance than Oversampling DACs. However it's your money

Some people like RME some like Gustard, some like SMSL, some like Loxjie etc. I have been happy with Topping. The 4 models you mentioned should do the job. Take your pick.

 

[G-rig]

As the RPi will be using Linux, the drivers should not be an issue. The pop on powering up/down is usually down to the designer muting outputs. My D10B does a nice job of muting the output. The Khadas does not.

The only issue is power consumption. Is you have an eternal SSD/HDD it might be safer to stick with DACs that have external power or and an SSD USB hub combo that has external power. I'm not saying you will have problems but you need to aware. If weird things start happening with your RPi, it could be a power problem.

Any USB DAC that got a thumbs up in the last year should be okay from a noise and distortion perspective. Some will be better than others but you will not hear the difference. The only decision is features, looks and usability. In the main it will be your taste.

• Do you need MQA? YES
  Balanced or un-balanced out? Do not worry TRS versus XLR, it will not change the sound. BALANCED XLR to Yamaha HS80M
• Do you need a headphone output? NO, DAC only (separate headphone amp is the go, got an iFi Zen DAC+ Matrix M-Stage on PC setup)
• Volume control? YES, want control given active monitors, and do away with nano patch and TRS cables. Got a longer set of XLR only now)
• Do you need a display? Not really unless get bored and add one to the RPi4 for a roon endpoint one day. Phone/Web player good enough)
• Remote control? YES, as above (tested the digital/variable on the SMSL worked ok - Fixed runs the risk of extremely loud)
• When you read the review thread were there a lot of complaints about the remote being unreliable, the channels not being matched at low volume settings or the menu being fiddly? Things like that might not show till a week or so after review. Yes remote didn't work out of the box, chinese DAC some oddities.
• Be suspicious of people that mention 'sound stage' or more 'musical'. DACs these day will tend to sound the same. They are all getting too good. Those SMSL filters sounded alright without being a gimmick, can change the sound which may help different setups.
• Do you like the colour? The SU-9 looked a bit better in blue and could add matching amps but as long as same width Topping/THX/RME etc ok later on.
• Do you like the knobs. volume knob handy and set at a normal level then regulate with phone/player - don't hink it needs to be pre-out (full up?)
• Do you like the price.
• R2R DACs tend to be more expensive and have less performance than Oversampling DACs. However it's your money The yamahas are great so whatever matches up, still prefer something musical than too clinical or harsh etc, instrument separation and not too smooth i guess.

Some people like RME some like Gustard, some like SMSL, some like Loxjie etc. I have been happy with Topping. The 4 models you mentioned should do the job. Take your pick.

Cheers - answers above in bold. Happy with the RPi4 and USB anyway, main thing is balanced out, vol, mqa support, remote, pre-amp mode meant to be good not sure what's best with active monitors (have them down a fair way now that the gain control disconnected, don't want too many different volumes affecting things). Like you say most of those would be good choices. An all in one like the EVO 150 is a bit too expensive, impressed with the RPi stuff for now. Funny there aren't too many all in one streamer/dac combos etc. Don't want to spend too much on Chinese stuff if it feels less than premium. Topping is probably reliable and a favourite of most people (they just look a bit cheap like a set-top box, but most DAC are small now). Don't mind perhaps powering a 2-4Tb HDD separately and connecting to the Pi if necessary, of beef up the supplied power as you mentioned. Last thing is that the recording/remastering quality makes more of a difference than tiny trivial upgrades but think a new DAC is in order

 

[kchap]

Cheers - answers above in bold. Happy with the RPi4 and USB anyway, main thing is balanced out, vol, mqa support, remote, pre-amp mode meant to be good not sure what's best with active monitors (have them down a fair way now that the gain control disconnected, don't want too many different volumes affecting things). Like you say most of those would be good choices. An all in one like the EVO 150 is a bit too expensive, impressed with the RPi stuff for now. Funny there aren't too many all in one streamer/dac combos etc. Don't want to spend too much on Chinese stuff if it feels less than premium. Topping is probably reliable and a favourite of most people (they just look a bit cheap like a set-top box, but most DAC are small now). Don't mind perhaps powering a 2-4Tb HDD separately and connecting to the Pi if necessary, of beef up the supplied power as you mentioned. Last thing is that the recording/remastering quality makes more of a difference than tiny trivial upgrades but think a new DAC is in order

Glad to help. I was joking little about the colour etc. but, I was reinforcing the argument that they have good specs so the look is one of the few remaining differences.