Topping D70s MQA Review (DAC)

[Angsty]

However, one usually also takes other things in consideration like; aesthetics, connectivity, formfactor, feature set or just the "peace of mind" that you have the best measuring DAC out there.
Those are valid reasons to want to spend more on a DAC but has nothing to do with how the DAC sounds.

Well said.

 

[Peternz]

Just checking in to say that I have had one of these for a couple of years and it has performed perfectly. I could not be happier with it.

 

[Jimster480]

Just checking in to say that I have had one of these for a couple of years and it has performed perfectly. I could not be happier with it.

I've had mine over a year now and still love it. Listening to it as I write this.

 

[navin]

I've had mine over a year now and still love it. Listening to it as I write this.

The D70s is now almost 3 years old. Newer chip DACs based on the 4499EX/EQ and AK4191 are now available. Sometimes, I wonder if these new DACs do anything that the D70s can't.

 

[Jimster480]

The D70s is now almost 3 years old. Newer chip DACs based on the 4499EX/EQ and AK4191 are now available. Sometimes, I wonder if these new DACs do anything that the D70s can't.

They can't do anything honestly. I used my DX7 for 5 years+ before replacing it last year with this D70S after I broke my USB interface. There was nothing really that the D70S does outside of MQA that the old one didn't do... no sonic upgrade that I could hear either... my DX7 had SINAD 108+ and there is basically no music requiring such high performance so...
The best thing to do is to buy something and keep it.

 

[777]

Topping D70s is one of the best DAC's. The chip, AK4497eq, is maybe the most underrated from entire audio market. It has a very good performances, it sound is excellent, it is easy to implement. It don't need of I/V converter. Topping D70s need a fresh chassis, case, with a new screen. Maybe a new XMOS, XU316 and a powerfull output stage with OPA1656 op amp for example. Maybe a much powerfull power supply for all stages, with much powerfull voltage regulators, with low resistance PCB routes for power supply, etc...

 

[Roland68]

Topping D70s is one of the best DAC's. The chip, AK4497eq, is maybe the most underrated from entire audio market. It has a very good performances, it sound is excellent, it is easy to implement. It don't need of I/V converter. Topping D70s need a fresh chassis, case, with a new screen. Maybe a new XMOS, XU316 and a powerfull output stage with OPA1656 op amp for example. Maybe a much powerfull power supply for all stages, with much powerfull voltage regulators, with low resistance PCB routes for power supply, etc...

You speak from my soul.
My guess has always been that an AK4499 is just two AK4497s in one chip, with optimizations for readings

 

[Jimster480]

Topping D70s is one of the best DAC's. The chip, AK4497eq, is maybe the most underrated from entire audio market. It has a very good performances, it sound is excellent, it is easy to implement. It don't need of I/V converter. Topping D70s need a fresh chassis, case, with a new screen. Maybe a new XMOS, XU316 and a powerfull output stage with OPA1656 op amp for example. Maybe a much powerfull power supply for all stages, with much powerfull voltage regulators, with low resistance PCB routes for power supply, etc...

I mean I wouldn't say it needs a new anything tbh. It literally has SINAD of like 120.... its technically textbook perfect and it has a simple interface with all the outputs one could want.. what else is there to need?

You speak from my soul.
My guess has always been that an AK4499 is just two AK4497s in one chip, with optimizations for readings

Probably is. The performance is phenomenal.

 

[Roland68]

I mean I wouldn't say it needs a new anything tbh. It literally has SINAD of like 120.... its technically textbook perfect and it has a simple interface with all the outputs one could want.. what else is there to need?

Making coffee would be great, preferably with milk foam...

 

[Jimster480]

Making coffee would be great, preferably with milk foam...

I think this is respectfully, the wrong product category for such recommendations / features

 

[Angsty]

Making coffee would be great, preferably with milk foam...

That’s Dak, not DAC.

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[navin]

Topping D70s is one of the best DAC's. The chip, AK4497eq, is maybe the most underrated from entire audio market. It has a very good performances, it sound is excellent, it is easy to implement. It don't need of I/V converter. Topping D70s need a fresh chassis, case, with a new screen. Maybe a new XMOS, XU316 and a powerfull output stage with OPA1656 op amp for example. Maybe a much powerfull power supply for all stages, with much powerfull voltage regulators, with low resistance PCB routes for power supply, etc...

Quick newbie question. Would there be a noticeable sonic if the XMOS was upgraded to a 316 and the output opamp was upgraded to 1656?

If it helps, my current audio chain is WiiM Pro Plus (with Topping P50 power supply) to D70s to AVM EVOLUTION A5.2. The Integrated feeds the midrange and tweeter while a pair of EVOLUTION MA3.2 Mono blocks feed the woofers.

 

[DHT 845]

Quick newbie question. Would there be a noticeable sonic if the XMOS was upgraded to a 316 and the output opamp was upgraded to 1656?

If it helps, my current audio chain is WiiM Pro Plus (with Topping P50 power supply) to D70s to AVM EVOLUTION A5.2. The Integrated feeds the midrange and tweeter while a pair of EVOLUTION MA3.2 Mono blocks feed the woofers.

Helps for what?

 

[navin]

Helps for what?

To determine if a DAC upgrade would offer any audible change.

 

[777]

First of all: the power supply is not enough at chip pins and op-amps. The impedance of the power supply at the chips and op-amps is too high. That fact is not too good for impact of the sound. THD+N is very good because the signal is constant. If you change the amplitude of the signal, things are going crazy. The sound loses its impact, lacks depth, lacks the hammer blow. So, lower impedance is needed at the power supply pins of the chip. There is no analog signal in the chip, there is only a switching signal. The resulting analog signal is actually a residue of the switching signals with which the chip works. This tells us that the impedance must be low at the switching frequency and at the slew-rate frequency from which the vertical switching stages are formed. So it would be about a frequency band between a few hundred Khz and a few tens of Mhz. Therefore, the decoupling near the chip is extremely important, so that must be done with many parallel capacitors between 10uF and 10nF..... 100nF is not enough. The last example can be seen in the Topping DX9 chip.

Why OPA1656 instead of OPA1612 ? Because it has double output current, because it has a FET input, because it has a much smaller open loop output impedance (resistance), because it has almost the same THD+N like OPA1612.

 

[Jimster480]

To determine if a DAC upgrade would offer any audible change.

There is no way that it could offer any audible change. This DAC is literally at textbook perfect performance levels... The DAC's of this year are barely any better and they are just further beyond Textbook perfect... So there is definitely no SONIC UPGRADE by going beyond this DAC. Please read my above post explaining this.

First of all: the power supply is not enough at chip pins and op-amps. The impedance of the power supply at the chips and op-amps is too high. That fact is not too good for impact of the sound. THD+N is very good because the signal is constant. If you change the amplitude of the signal, things are going crazy. The sound loses its impact, lacks depth, lacks the hammer blow. So, lower impedance is needed at the power supply pins of the chip. There is no analog signal in the chip, there is only a switching signal. The resulting analog signal is actually a residue of the switching signals with which the chip works. This tells us that the impedance must be low at the switching frequency and at the slew-rate frequency from which the vertical switching stages are formed. So it would be about a frequency band between a few hundred Khz and a few tens of Mhz. Therefore, the decoupling near the chip is extremely important, so that must be done with many parallel capacitors between 10uF and 10nF..... 100nF is not enough. The last example can be seen in the Topping DX9 chip.

Why OPA1656 instead of OPA1612 ? Because it has double output current, because it has a FET input, because it has a much smaller open loop output impedance (resistance), because it has almost the same THD+N like OPA1612.

Not sure what you are crying about here but really the reality is that this DAC has literally perfect performance. The Linearity is perfect, the multi tone is perfect and the overall SNR, DNR and THD+N are perfect...
There is no reason to change this DAC or upgrade it in any way.
"Sound loses impact"
"Lacks the hammer blow"
"lacks depth"
All of these are just BS nonsense audiophile feel good words.
I have an SMSL SU-8S here too and doing ABX with them both going at the same time; I cannot tell any difference even in my complex technical tracks from classical music and electronic music as well as a few specific jazz tracks that have very high dynamic range and real notes at very high frequencies as well as very low background noise notes.
Doing critical listening while switching back and forth between the DAC's even in these critical parts of these tracks yields NOTHING.
I can compare vs my DX7 also and I also heard NOTHING. I've picked out some serious differences between DAC's in the past when they did exist and got myself in quite a bit of drama in this entire industry... point is that my setup is built for the most possible resolution with some of the lowest distortion headphones ever tested here (like Aeon Closed & 1More Triple Driver & Hifiman Ananda). The Aeon has the best performance and any tiny detail can be heard in the background in my quiet office; being the most ideal conditions with such gear.. if I literally can't find any differences (unless I mess around with the filters, then I can find specific spots where there are slight differences) then I would argue (and the science would back me up) that there is no audible difference.

 

[777]

There is no way that it could offer any audible change. This DAC is literally at textbook perfect performance levels... The DAC's of this year are barely any better and they are just further beyond Textbook perfect... So there is definitely no SONIC UPGRADE by going beyond this DAC. Please read my above post explaining this.

Not sure what you are crying about here but really the reality is that this DAC has literally perfect performance. The Linearity is perfect, the multi tone is perfect and the overall SNR, DNR and THD+N are perfect...
There is no reason to change this DAC or upgrade it in any way.
"Sound loses impact"
"Lacks the hammer blow"
"lacks depth"
All of these are just BS nonsense audiophile feel good words.
I have an SMSL SU-8S here too and doing ABX with them both going at the same time; I cannot tell any difference even in my complex technical tracks from classical music and electronic music as well as a few specific jazz tracks that have very high dynamic range and real notes at very high frequencies as well as very low background noise notes.
Doing critical listening while switching back and forth between the DAC's even in these critical parts of these tracks yields NOTHING.
I can compare vs my DX7 also and I also heard NOTHING. I've picked out some serious differences between DAC's in the past when they did exist and got myself in quite a bit of drama in this entire industry... point is that my setup is built for the most possible resolution with some of the lowest distortion headphones ever tested here (like Aeon Closed & 1More Triple Driver & Hifiman Ananda). The Aeon has the best performance and any tiny detail can be heard in the background in my quiet office; being the most ideal conditions with such gear.. if I literally can't find any differences (unless I mess around with the filters, then I can find specific spots where there are slight differences) then I would argue (and the science would back me up) that there is no audible difference.

Have you driven cars before pollution standards? did you notice that even though they have less power, they drive more sportily? the new ones have hundreds of horsepower but behave like a tired grandma. You know why ? Because the pollution rules strangle the engine, don't let it suddenly put all the power to the wheel. Due to pollution regulations, the power is put to the wheel gradually. It is the same with DACs. To obtain very small distortions in static measurements and low noise, manufacturers use power supplies with high output impedance, with high resistance PCB routes. High impedance limits sudden current increases, tempers them and this leads to a flat, uninteresting sound. No one hears distortions smaller than 0.1%, but instead feels the linear distortions generated by the current limitations that lead to amplitude drops when playing music. This thing is not found in the static signals with which the measurements are made.

 

[navin]

First of all: the power supply is not enough at chip pins and op-amps.

Are you saying that the D70s power supply needs to be changed?

There is no way that it could offer any audible change.

Thanks. That's all I needed. I got the D70s because it fit my budget and was available at that time.

 

[navin]

It is the same with DACs. To obtain very small distortions in static measurements and low noise, manufacturers use power supplies with high output impedance, with high resistance PCB routes. High impedance limits sudden current increases, tempers them and this leads to a flat, uninteresting sound. No one hears distortions smaller than 0.1%, but instead feels the linear distortions generated by the current limitations that lead to amplitude drops when playing music. This thing is not found in the static signals with which the measurements are made.

What do you recommend we do to fix this? I am not taking the DAC apart and digging around the chips. I just want to enjoy my music. Thanks.

Is there a DAC in your mind that fits the bill? The SMSL D400EX with AK4191 + dual AK4499EX or the Topping D70 Octo 8-chip DAC? or some R-2R DAC?

 

[777]

Are you saying that the D70s power supply needs to be changed?

It needs to be completely redesigned. You can have very high power at the transformer, but if you don't know how to deliver it to the chip that works with switching signals, it's as if it doesn't exist. You can put a 10,000uF electrolytic capacitor that will do a worse job than a 10uF ceramic placed near the chip pins. I studied 8 DACs from Topping and SMSL and saw how the Chinese think about the whole scheme. Fortunately, the new models, from 2023, started to take into account what I talked about and the sound is better of course. Probably they also realized these things.