Topping D30 DAC Measurement and Review

[Julf]

Unfortunately, this is not so. Despite all the enchanting-looking specifications of modern cheap DACs, it is not always pleasant to hear their sound. I would even say - rarely pleasant.
However, I am getting stronger in the opinion that rather the main part of the unpleasant sound comes from the operating system, and not the DAC itself. As it seems to me, in relation to Windows, at least, this is the problem of short processor quantization and excessively small size of continuously allocated / freed memory sections.

Do you have any evidence to support that conjecture? It doesn't take much CPU power or time, or need very tight latency, to keep the USB buffer filled up.

 

[Vosya]

A DAC only needs to translate a digital signal into an analog one for amplication, there is an objective goal.

Is there at least one DAC that has achieved this goal, both objectively and subjectively? Which one? Where is there an unconditional confirmation that the set of instrumental measurements, which is being exaggerated here, is identical to the human perception of sound from the compared devices?

 

[Julf]

Is there at least one DAC that has achieved this goal, both objectively and subjectively? Which one? Where is there an unconditional confirmation that the set of instrumental measurements, which is being exaggerated here, is identical to the human perception of sound from the compared devices?

I suggest you look at Amir's measurements...

Do you have any objective evidence that the differences are actually audible?

 

[Tim Link]

The argument is about what's causing the changed perception of the sound quality. Nobody is questioning Vosya's perception. He knows what he's perceiving. We're disagreeing with his explanation of what's causing the difference in sound quality perception between things that are technically know to have inaudible differences. This reminds me of my relative's story about a guy that she saw get on the bus who somehow disappeared without the bus ever stopping. Two other people verify that they were the only other people on the bus and that the guy somehow disappeared between stops. Nobody was actually directly looking at him when he blinked out of existence, but it became apparent to everybody that the guy was gone. They're conclusion was that he was an angel. No specific evidence given of his angelic status other than his disappearing and their feelings about it. My conclusion is they all lost track of something somewhere. I'm relating to my personal experience and my understanding of how the natural world works. For the same reason I doubt there's any real audible difference between a d30 and a d50 under controlled testing.

 

[Vosya]

...to keep the USB buffer filled up.

What buffer are you talking about? Where is it formed, and what determines its size, what is this value? How does the process of filling and emptying it take place?

 

[Transmaniacon]

Is there at least one DAC that has achieved this goal, both objectively and subjectively? Which one? Where is there an unconditional confirmation that the set of instrumental measurements, which is being exaggerated here, is identical to the human perception of sound from the compared devices?

There are several. I would suggest you read this: https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...derstanding-digital-audio-measurements.10523/

It’s unlikely anyone can discern two DACs with a SINAD of 116dB+.

 

[Vosya]

For the same reason I doubt there's any real audible difference between a d30 and a d50 under controlled testing.

Try it yourself. And then you will have a real argument: he was hallucinating, but I don't hear any difference. So far, I have not seen a single one with own experience. Several quoteer of other opinions, taken a priori, thoughtlessly.

 

[Vosya]

It’s unlikely anyone can discern two DACs with a SINAD of 116dB+.

Were, so beloved here, double blind mass examinations, with representative results?

 

[Julf]

What buffer are you talking about? Where is it formed, and what determines its size, what is this value? How does the process of filling and emptying it take place?

Do you really need me to explain that? Have you ever written a device driver? Do the words "interrupt" and "DMA" have any meaning to you?

 

[Transmaniacon]

Were, so beloved here, double blind mass examinations, with representative results?

This is science, we know the limits of human hearing. These devices are operating beyond that threshold.

 

[Julf]

Try it yourself. And then you will have a real argument: he was hallucinating, but I don't hear any difference. So far, I have not seen a single one with own experience. Several quoteer of other opinions, taken a priori, thoughtlessly.

Thanks, but I have tried. I have tested and compared quite a few DACs, and with most modern DACs (that have not been designed to have a "sound") there is no audible difference.

 

[Vosya]

Do you really need me to explain that? Have you ever written a device driver? Do the words "interrupt" and "DMA" have any meaning to you?

Why not. Considering that USB does not use DMA in any way, and interrupts do not refer to the size of the buffer at all, I conclude that this is a pathetic attempt to evade an answer due to ignorance.

 

[Vosya]

Thanks, but I have tried. I have tested and compared quite a few DACs, and with most modern DACs (that have not been designed to have a "sound") there is no audible difference.

Have tested D30 and D50?

 

[BDWoody]

Is there at least one DAC that has achieved this goal, both objectively and subjectively?

Lots...

Here's a good thread to start.

Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

Introduction A recurring theme on ASR is whether or not the various measured qualities of the devices are audible. In this post, I'll present some clear and visual thresholds for when those imperfections can be considered a potentially audible concern. I will not explain the basics of amp/DAC...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And, here's a good one for a sense of perspective about how small these differences are.

The shoutometer hasn't come up in a while...

The Shoutometer

We've all seen the Sound Pressure Level decibel reference tables where you have "quiet room", "chainsaw", "jet engine" and so on. While that is handy for estimating increased loudness in decibles, it didn't help me when thinking about the measurement levels obtained around here when measuring...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Vosya]

Lots...

I am amused by the theses of those who have learned to measure and compare only the cross-sectional area. But not knowing about the existence of heights. For them, the shoebox and the column of the building are roughly equal.
The set of measurements practiced here for comparison and categorical conclusions is by no means exhaustive. And I think the future will prove it.

 

[Julf]

Why not. Considering that USB does not use DMA in any way, and interrupts do not refer to the size of the buffer at all, I conclude that this is a pathetic attempt to evade an answer due to ignorance.

If you say so, but... USB DMA

 

[Julf]

I am amused by the theses of those who have learned to measure and compare only the cross-sectional area. But not knowing about the existence of heights. For them, the shoebox and the column of the building are roughly equal.
The set of measurements practiced here for comparison and categorical conclusions is by no means exhaustive. And I think the future will prove it.

I am amused by those who flowerpot. But not knowing bicycle.

 

[Vosya]

If you say so, but... USB DMA

My mention: "in relation to Windows" - in convulsive attempts to save face, did you choose to ignore? As well as the actual content of my initial question?

 

[Julf]

My mention: "in relation to Windows" - in convulsive attempts to save face, did you choose to ignore? As well as the actual content of my initial question?

Well, you seem to ignore my requests for evidence, and as you seem to have felt the need to resort to ad hominems and insults, I don't feel a huge need to continue the discussion.

 

[Vosya]

Well, you seem to ignore my requests for evidence

Evidence of what? Observations that after switching all devices, supporting this, to MSI-mode; setting the Windows operating system thread manager to “Long, Fixed, No foreground boost” intervals of context switching; setting the system directs all drivers and all executables to use Large-Page memory regions; setting of Heap De Commit Free Block Threshold and Heap De Commit Total Free Threshold parameters increased by several orders of magnitude higher than the officially supported by M$; increasing the size of the default Heap Segment, System Pages, Paged Pool Size, Non Paged Pool Size to the maximum - in total led to the sound of the DAC became as if I had changed it to something from a completely different market niche and price category?
Do the same, maybe then you will have something to discuss from your own experience. This is the essence of the "scientific method". And not in the choral bleating of the mantra: "double blind, double blind".