To DAC or not to DAC?

[Rednaxela]

Do you perhaps have a digital source with a DAC that measures worse than your AVR’s?

Provided you are able to level match, you could in that case test the opposite -> does switching to your AVR’s DAC have an audibly positive effect?

Not what you’re after I know, but could still be mighty insightful.

 

[gsp1971]

Thanks for the update. It sounds like your test didn't work correctly for the above mentioned. I have no issues with any inputs and outputs. I don't have a external DAC yet.... I was hoping to find someone whom may have tried this successfully with an AVR and their findings. I am thinking I may have to do this on my own and then create another thread with the findings.

Science says you won't be able to tell the difference between an external DAC and the DAC in your AVR. Any differences would be well beyond audibility. Unless something is badly broken.
I tried it out of curiousity with two different disc players (Oppo & Pioneer) feeding a Denon AVR, using analog connection (DAC of the disc players) and co-axial connection (DAC in AVR).
I did not have the equipment to volume match precisely, but as an approximation I used my decibel meter and adjusted the playing volume so that my decibel meter read 70-71dB at my listening position.
Used 10 songs I know very well and I was not able to tell any difference. With some tracks I thought that the Oppo DAC sounded slightly better than the Pioneer DAC but I am sure I would not be able to tell the difference consistently in a blind test.

Best I could do. Hope it helps you.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Has anyone done this per adding an external DAC for digital audio such as CD or streaming then connected it to the analog inputs of their AVR? If so, what were one's findings?

I have it set up that way for stereo listening. PC (Room correction DSP done here via Dirac) -> RME ADI-2 DAC -> AVR (set to direct).
The main reason is so I can use the loudness function of the RME, since I often listen quietly when speakers are involved.
Also, the RME sits in front of me, the AVR is further away, easier for a quick grab of the volume. :'D

Sonically, I can't hear any difference between the AVR's DACs and the RME.

For multichannel, I just use HDMI and ASIO4All to keep latencies down.

 

[Hattrick]

Science says you won't be able to tell the difference between an external DAC and the DAC in your AVR. Any differences would be well beyond audibility. Unless something is badly broken.
I tried it out of curiousity with two different disc players (Oppo & Pioneer) feeding a Denon AVR, using analog connection (DAC of the disc players) and co-axial connection (DAC in AVR).
I did not have the equipment to volume match precisely, but as an approximation I used my decibel meter and adjusted the playing volume so that my decibel meter read 70-71dB at my listening position.
Used 10 songs I know very well and I was not able to tell any difference. With some tracks I thought that the Oppo DAC sounded slightly better than the Pioneer DAC but I am sure I would not be able to tell the difference consistently in a blind test.

Best I could do. Hope it helps you.

I think many "Audiophiles would argue this, "Science says you won't be able to tell the difference between an external DAC and the DAC in your AVR." You probably are right but there hundreds of DAC from $50.00 to $100K! All are being sold world wide. There are numerous reviews on DACS which fueled my interest. So regardless of Science, Audiophiles will claim there are differences per each DAC or at least from a low priced DAC verse an expensive DAC.

I have done a test with my Oppo 203 as well which too enforced my interest of the topic of this Thread.

Output of the 203 is HDMI, Digital COAX, and Optical. I use the HDMI for Movies via BR or DVD and can also be used for CD. The COAX for CD music digital transport only. The COAX out bypasses the internal DAC of the Oppo just sending digital to the AVR input of the same. I have listened to CD's both from the HDMI and the Coax and the difference is very obvious the Coax sounds better. So for me that kills the "Science" claim. The Oppo has a very good DAC but internal DAC of the Arcam AVR 850 was musically better via the Coax.

 

[Hattrick]

I have it set up that way for stereo listening. PC (Room correction DSP done here via Dirac) -> RME ADI-2 DAC -> AVR (set to direct).
The main reason is so I can use the loudness function of the RME, since I often listen quietly when speakers are involved.
Also, the RME sits in front of me, the AVR is further away, easier for a quick grab of the volume. :'D

Sonically, I can't hear any difference between the AVR's DACs and the RME.

For multichannel, I just use HDMI and ASIO4All to keep latencies down.

Thank you very much Aerith! This is what I want to find out. Question is the RME connected to the AVR utilizing the analog outs or via HDMI or Digital Output to the AVR? If it is the later, you won't hear the difference because the AVR DAC is the end digital processing to the preamp to the speakers. Not sure how Direct would work at all for the later mentioned connection. Unless you are just turning off DSP.

 

[MLaranjeiras]

I made it on my Pioneer VSX LX 503 and it did not sound good. Never heard these new Denon, but here there is a huge difference between the sound of the Pioneer vs my Sansui Au-X911DG. In my experience, I do not count on an AV receiver to listen a decent stereo music. I use an Oppo BDP 105 connected directly via RCA (Wireword Equinox 8) to the Sansui. Via mconnect app, I use Tidal on my smartphone to send musics via network to the Oppo. Works like a breeze.

 

[MLaranjeiras]

I think many "Audiophiles would argue this, "Science says you won't be able to tell the difference between an external DAC and the DAC in your AVR." You probably are right but there hundreds of DAC from $50.00 to $100K! All are being sold world wide. There are numerous reviews on DACS which fueled my interest. So regardless of Science, Audiophiles will claim there are differences per each DAC or at least from a low priced DAC verse an expensive DAC.

I have done a test with my Oppo 203 as well which too enforced my interest of the topic of this Thread.

Output of the 203 is HDMI, Digital COAX, and Optical. I use the HDMI for Movies via BR or DVD and can also be used for CD. The COAX for CD music digital transport only. The COAX out bypasses the internal DAC of the Oppo just sending digital to the AVR input of the same. I have listened to CD's both from the HDMI and the Coax and the difference is very obvious the Coax sounds better. So for me that kills the "Science" claim. The Oppo has a very good DAC but internal DAC of the Arcam AVR 850 was musically better via the Coax.

I totally disagree, dear Hattrick. Also, the excellent Oppo UDP 203 is not a specialist on stereo affairs. Its brother UDP 205 is a monster in this area.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Question is the RME connected to the AVR utilizing the analog outs or via HDMI or Digital Output to the AVR?

RME doesn't have digital outputs.
It is connected via RCA. So I can bypass the entire DAC stage of the AVR.

 

[Rednaxela]

I have listened to CD's both from the HDMI and the Coax and the difference is very obvious the Coax sounds better. So for me that kills the "Science" claim.

Please reconsider this line of reasoning.

Instead of rejecting science you could also embrace it, and try and work out how on earth it could be possible that two digital connections sounded so obviously different with the same program material. There are many possible explanations, and there are also many techniques to rule them out, one by one until you have the answer. This can actually be very fun, especially when done together, for instance on your favourite audio science review forum. Eventually you may arrive at the expected explanation, i.e. coax is simply the better connection. But at least you‘d then have the data to back it up. And you’d have learned something together along the way.

An IMO very nice example of such a process can be found here.

HTH!

 

[Hattrick]

I totally disagree, dear Hattrick. Also, the excellent Oppo UDP 203 is not a specialist on stereo affairs. Its brother UDP 205 is a monster in this area.

After a bit of more research I learned that the HDMI out of the Oppo isn't a DAC processed data. I don't know what I was thinking. That being said it would have to be a Digital to Digital converter, which of course is not. Thank you.

 

[Hattrick]

RME doesn't have digital outputs.
It is connected via RCA. So I can bypass the entire DAC stage of the AVR.

Gotcha thank you.

Please reconsider this line of reasoning.

Instead of rejecting science you could also embrace it, and try and work out how on earth it could be possible that two digital connections sounded so obviously different with the same program material. There are many possible explanations, and there are also many techniques to rule them out, one by one until you have the answer. This can actually be very fun, especially when done together, for instance on your favourite audio science review forum. Eventually you may arrive at the expected explanation, i.e. coax is simply the better connection. But at least you‘d then have the data to back it up. And you’d have learned something together along the way.

An IMO very nice example of such a process can be found here.

HTH!

I stand corrected, per bit transmission. However I am very confused with all the reviews of "High End" DAC's sounding better than mid priced chipset DAC's. Especially the ladder DACS coming into conversation.

 

[DonR]

I stand corrected, per bit transmission. However I am very confused with all the reviews of "High End" DAC's sounding better than mid priced chipset DAC's. Especially the ladder DACS coming into conversation.

Never accept a subjective review at face value. It is simply the biases of the reviewer speaking and not reality.

 

[Hattrick]

Never accept a subjective review at face value. It is simply the biases of the reviewer speaking and not reality.

Point taken. I think if one has an interest go test. But make sure there is a good return policy if you find your subjected review of the product and make a determination to purchase or return.

 

[MLaranjeiras]

After a bit of more research I learned that the HDMI out of the Oppo isn't a DAC processed data. I don't know what I was thinking. That being said it would have to be a Digital to Digital converter, which of course is not. Thank yo

Never accept a subjective review at face value. It is simply the biases of the reviewer speaking and not reality.

Good! I have a Topping E50 MQA. Very satisfied with It, for around US$ 240.00. A relevant step ahead will cost me the triple and I have no apetite for that at this moment.

 

[Rednaxela]

I stand corrected, per bit transmission.

Respect for this, really. And my apologies if I got carried away a bit too much.

 

[gsp1971]

Point taken. I think if one has an interest go test. But make sure there is a good return policy if you find your subjected review of the product and make a determination to purchase or return.

Tens of DACs have been tested here on ASR by @amirm who has shown that there are plenty of DACs < $1,000 whose performance is state-of-the-art.

So, those "High End" DACs you have been reading about probably do not offer better performance to justify the additional cost, unless of course you are intrigued by high-end brand names and things like 'pride of ownership'.

Please let's not try to misinterpret scientific data for the sake of justifying magazine reviews of high-end products. There are many agendas in those magazine reviews - it has been said many times.

PS How is it possible that one digital output sounds better than another digital output since they both transmit data 'as is' without converting?

gsp

 

[MLaranjeiras]

I made it on my Pioneer VSX LX 503 and it did not sound good. Never heard these new Denon, but here there is a huge difference between the sound of the Pioneer vs my Sansui Au-X911DG. In my experience, I do not count on an AV receiver to listen a decent stereo music. I use an Oppo BDP 105 connected directly via RCA (Wireword Equinox 8) to the Sansui. Via mconnect app, I use Tidal on my smartphone to send musics via network to the Oppo. Works like a breeze.

Sharing my impressions about the audio sources using Tidal, from best to worst. Remembering that everything goes to the Sansui AU X911DG integrated amplifier:

1. Mac/Mini+DAC MQA + Wireworld Eclipse 7 RCA + USB printer cable - Better sound, no gaps between songs;
2. Oppo BDP 105 + mconnect + Wireworld Equinox 8 - Same in terms of sound, with a small perception of intervals. Being FLAC 48/24 and not MQA 192/24 does not affect anything in terms of quality;
3. Pioneer VSX LX503 + mconnect + Wireworld Eclipse 7 - After the EQ on the receiver, it is now plays very good. There is a difference in sound for the Oppo, but not that it is inferior;
4. External Chromecast pluged on Pioneer VSX LX503 - The quality drops and the rate doesn't go beyond 48kHz, I think 16 bit;
5. Chromecast audio on Pioneer VSX LX503 - Bad sound. Everything drops to 44.1/16. Muddy sound compared with the three first sources. I noted that in Pure Direct mode, sound gets better.
6. Pioneer VSX LX503 resident Tidal - Worst of all. Everything drops to 44.1/16. It is a hard fight with number 5. I noted that in Pure Direct mode, sound gets better.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Sharing my impressions about the audio sources using Tidal, from best to worst. Remembering that everything goes to the Sansui AU X911DG integrated amplifier:

1. Mac/Mini+DAC MQA + Wireworld Eclipse 7 RCA + USB printer cable - Better sound, no gaps between songs;
2. Oppo BDP 105 + mconnect + Wireworld Equinox 8 - Same in terms of sound, with a small perception of intervals. Being FLAC 48/24 and not MQA 192/24 does not affect anything in terms of quality;
3. Pioneer VSX LX503 + mconnect + Wireworld Eclipse 7 - After the EQ on the receiver, it is now plays very good. There is a difference in sound for the Oppo, but not that it is inferior;
4. External Chromecast pluged on Pioneer VSX LX503 - The quality drops and the rate doesn't go beyond 48kHz, I think 16 bit;
5. Chromecast audio on Pioneer VSX LX503 - Bad sound. Everything drops to 44.1/16. Muddy sound compared with the three first sources. I noted that in Pure Direct mode, sound gets better.
6. Pioneer VSX LX503 resident Tidal - Worst of all. Everything drops to 44.1/16. It is a hard fight with number 5. I noted that in Pure Direct mode, sound gets better.

How has that test been conducted?

 

[MLaranjeiras]

How has that test been conducted?

Listening carefully all the source of my set.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Listening carefully all the source of my set.

So the results are only valid for you and inline with your personal preferences, subjective impression, biases, in your room, on your system and not for anyone else - correct?

Audio Blind Testing - You Are Doing It Wrong! (Video)

Just uploaded a video on the basics of performing controlled tests in audio. It was motivated by saving myself text in having to write all of this down when telling someone who to do these tests right. And as a counter to a few online personalities to keep saying they do "blind" tests yet when...

www.audiosciencereview.com