Time Domain measurements?

[ferrellms]

Pardon my butting in, but I just had to throw in a couple of cents worth by saying that while linear phase is presumably of strong advantage somewhere, that with respect to speakers, the relationship between phase and frequency is linear this will in no way avoid phase mismatch among the various frequency components that make up a complex waveform. I'm on the fence with respect to where phase coherency matters (beyond the need for proper summation in the overlap region of a crossover), but if perchance it matters, linear phase isn't going to get it done.

Well, maybe that is the case for speakers, but I am talking about linear phase convolution of the entire chain as seen by the measurements at the listening point...

 

[Joachim Gerhard]

I have heard most the Adyton gear and talked a lot to the speaker designer (Geir Fredriksen) lately. Adyton is one of the most sold hi-end brand around here and it has unreal dynamics and resolution. I have, however, never 100% got to hold with the line sources... I think generally there is something unreal about the large size of the soundstage... Although I have heard one single implementation where this unnatural soundstage don't seem to be there, One of the employees at Oslo hi-fi center spent something like a year on integration and in this one case it works really well! .... but it's still not fully my piece of cake. Except for the iMagic 1.5 that I showed earlier, but it's not being sold anymore.

The one and only procduct available now is the Adyton Gracili below, featuring only 2.5" fullrange drivers (looks like fountek) and a ribbon.
These speakers use Valchromat panels for the cabinet and aluminium for the front, it is claimed that Valchromat has better behaviour for cabinets than mdf or hdf.
View attachment 73550

Geir Fredriksen is a very nice guy, very approachable and willing to share about mostly anything....

The speakers roll off naturally around 100 to 120 Hz (depending on model) There is also no crossover components in series with the main drivers; There must be two extremely capable subwoofers to match. If the subwoofer integration is not 1000% perfect it all falls apart. Fredriksen state that Adyton iMagic speakers are real phase coherent, but I never saw measurements proving it;

Those that never heard a linesource like this always seem to be shocked.... However, I prefer a speaker as close to point source as possible

Below some demo setup and Geir himself. I am, however, not so sure about this thing, the large REL stack can not be crossed high-enough to mate with the main speakers, so there is a small sub in bewteen that fill in between the subwoofer stack and main speakers .... strange setup to me
View attachment 73551

Adyton electronics is not sold anymore... The Cordis amps were really nice

There is also a spin-off, Audio Insight, the main product line is power conditioners, I got one of these myself, an IsoVolt 3K; I think it made a significant difference to me, taking away lots of "hash", makes music more smooth and nice and organic (Yes, it is NOT my imagination)

View attachment 73546

A line source to work at a closer distance needs shading. An unshaded Linesource needs top to bottom full length and needs to be listened to in the farfield. I issued a patent on shaded linesources in the US that solves some problems.

 

[haraldo]

A line source to work at a closer distance needs shading. An unshaded Linesource needs top to bottom full length and needs to be listened to in the farfield. I issued a patent on shaded linesources in the US that solves some problems.

Many of us here with limited space in flats cannot make that farfield setup, certainly I would not, currently I do have 250cm from tweeter to sweet spot and I don't think that is such an atypical setup around here

 

[Joachim Gerhard]

Many of us here with limited space in flats cannot make that farfield setup, certainly I would not, currently I do have 250cm from tweeter to sweet spot and I don't think that is such an atypical setup around here

No, I think it is good to listen in the farfield to speakers that are constructed for it.

 

[Joachim Gerhard]

And vice versa. Every speaker needs an optimum distance to listen too. Peter Walker had a lot control about the radiation pattern of the ESL63 and he openly admitted that there is no consensus emongst the gurus.

 

[haraldo]

No, I think it is good to listen in the farfield to speakers that are constructed for it.

it’s not exactly how they are normally being demoed, I don't generally see linesources demoed in real far-field ...
It’s even being said that with the linesources you can forget about the room.... I seen people with € 150.000 of equipment in a room with concrete walls, completely untreated with bare walls

it’s easy audible that they are less susceptible to standing waves in the vertical plane, but what about first reflections, horisontal standing waves, oblique modes, rt60 ....

 

[Joachim Gerhard]

it’s not exactly how they are normally being demoed, I don't generally see linesources demoed in real far-field ...
It’s even being said that with the linesources you can forget about the room.... I seen people with € 150.000 of equipment in a room with concrete walls, completely untreated with bare walls

it’s easy audible that they are less susceptible to standing waves in the vertical plane, but what about first reflections, horisontal standing waves, oblique modes, rt60 ....

The biggest problem in the nearfield is comb filtering. The sound reaches the ears from various points in space , at least vertically, and that creates a lot of confusion. Of cause some advantages remain like low distortion and high sensitivity.

 

[Joachim Gerhard]

I learned it the hard way. In 1983 I heard an Apogee Duetta in a big room and it was the best sound in total i ever heard. I was maybe 5 to 7 m away from the speakers. Then I put all my money together and bought a Scintilla for my HighEnd shop. I never could make them play, no matter what. The demo room was maybe 30qm but that was too small. I was more then happy when I could sell from for a considerable discount.

 

[haraldo]

The biggest problem in the nearfield is comb filtering. The sound reaches the ears from various points in space , at least vertically, and that creates a lot of confusion. Of cause some advantages remain like low distortion and high sensitivity.

I thought with the overall directivity of the line source you would not experience comb filtering, anyway this does not work well to me; Others may disagree

I learned it the hard way. In 1983 I heard an Apogee Duetta in a big room and it was the best sound in total i ever heard. I was maybe 5 to 7 m away from the speakers. Then I put all my money together and bought a Scintilla for my HighEnd shop. I never could make them play, no matter what. The demo room was maybe 30qm but that was too small. I was more then happy when I could sell from for a considerable discount.

THX A LOT - I never got panel or electrostats to work well for me

I try to always think strategically so that everything that comes in is there to stay and to bring me a step closer to where I want to go, without excessive and expensive replacements. This is very hard and takes a lot of knowledge. I don't find most dealers that useful in this respect as it seems a lot of their targets are on the next fiscal period. There are fortunately some exceptions though. Honestly I only trust myself and what I hear ... in these regards.

I was visiting a guy listening to The Audio Physic Cardeas Plus+. I hoped it would sound good but it did not. it was a small flat with concrete walls and zero acoustic treatments, I don´t fully know how these speakers are as I never heard them in optimal conditions; but these large speakers certainly did not work well in a small concrete wall room. Those Cardeas Plus+ were to be replaced by Magico S2 2 way floorstanders because he could not make the speakers work in this room .... I guess the S2´s won't work any better ...

I also heard a demo of the Cardeas Plus+ with Dieter Kratochwil and another guy with speakers set against the front wall in a tiny minuscule room..... they couldn´t make it right as far as I could hear.

To me it's really a good thing to have someone like you @Joachim Gerhard in such a thread because you do have such an immense level of knowledge and experience, could save some people in here some significant amount of money and help them in the right direction.

I know which speakers you will recommend

 

[fosti]

Hello to everyone,
by the way, that we are far from topic, I disagree with J's statements regarding "perfection" and "absolute reality". I have a pair of MEG RL901K at work and I think they are excellent ( strive for excellence, not perfection!). I've had a look at J's collection. Besides one of them are all small columns with no other help for dispersion in the lower mids like in Dutch&Dutch 8C oder KiiThree, which are build comparatively narrow, too. Narrow speakers are very hard to implement in a home living environment. All of J's collection speakers (besides the one mentioned) are spherical radiators to a much too high frequency. I have to admit that J's speakers look nice, but from a scientific view, they are very difficult to place in a room. No UB filters will help for that!
Best regards,
Christoph

 

[Joachim Gerhard]

Hello to everyone,
by the way, that we are far from topic, I disagree with J's statements regarding "perfection" and "absolute reality". I have a pair of MEG RL901K at work and I think they are excellent ( strive for excellence, not perfection!). I've had a look at J's collection. Besides one of them are all small columns with no other help for dispersion in the lower mids like in Dutch&Dutch 8C oder KiiThree, which are build comparatively narrow, too. Narrow speakers are very hard to implement in a home living environment. All of J's collection speakers (besides the one mentioned) are spherical radiators to a much too high frequency. I have to admit that J's speakers look nice, but from a scientific view, they are very difficult to place in a room. No UB filters will help for that!
Best regards,
Christoph

 

[Joachim Gerhard]

This one has constant directivity.

 

[Joachim Gerhard]

This shows amplitude response of the speaker on 0 15 45 and 60 degree. It is only valid over 1kHz.

 

[haraldo]

This one has constant directivity.

Is that along the same principles that was done with Medea?

 

[Joachim Gerhard]

Is that along the same principles that was done with Medea?

No, there are two passive radiators on the side. This speaker is called Surveyor and will be send to Amir as soon as series production starts. I am well aware of advantages of constant directivity but most of my speakers are point sources optimized for the nearfield.

 

[Joachim Gerhard]

On another issue. I think comb filtering is a time phenomenon too so why is that off topic ?

 

[haraldo]

No, there are two passive radiators on the side. This speaker is called Surveyor and will be send to Amir as soon as series production starts. I am well aware of advantages of constant directivity but most of my speakers are point sources optimized for the nearfield.

ok, thx !

 

[tuga]

This one has constant directivity.

Looks interesting.
How wide?
Woofer size? I see that they're passives.

 

[Joachim Gerhard]

I make rather wide speakers too. This is the Suesskind Puls wideband.

 

[Joachim Gerhard]

A picture