Things I Thought I Knew Were Wrong...Where To Go From Here?

[MidFi]

just my two cents from the cheap seats... all the suggestions to hump the learning curve to null out eq anomalies in your listening room (as best you can) with an inexpensive hardware/software process that just wasn't avaialble years ago when you put your system together - is probably the biggest bang for the buck you can do today for (your words), "[a] system [that] had been sitting for quite a few years"... take it one step at a time - ask questions... best of luck...

I appreciate the support.

 

[thecheapseats]

I appreciate the support.

and if, at some point it seems to be too much to deal with - blow off the tech stuff and enjoy the music... the fact you now have a dac and realize that "digital ain't the devil" - may be good enough for now...

 

[MidFi]

As much as I detest Roon (for reasons beyond this thread), given you have been under a rock for 25 years (and hence your digital audio skills might be lacking), it makes sense to

(1) Get roon on the monthly sub
(2) get some Roon endpoint (others can suggest what)
(3) take out a sub to one of the streaming services supported by Roon (I use Qobuz for its quality)
(4) Given Roon comes with its own DSP EQ, you get all you need to get into streaming in one package

NOW....

You will have to bugger around with PC's to get roon going and you will also have to bugger around with PC's to measure your room (say with the REW package) before applying EQ. If thats beyond your skill set then maybe wherever you live is some company/dealer that can do this for you or invest some time reading many of the tutorials available on the web.

The other more expensive route is to get a more expensive roon endpoint device with say Dirac as part of its "stuff" which makes the whole EQ process easy.

Summary:

- Get roon matched with a streaming service
- If you have the time, get a cheap roon endpoint, bugger around with PC's to get Roon up and do the same for EQ
- if you dont have time or the inclination, get a more device with the roon endpoint built in and with "one button" EQ such as with Dirac
*******************************************************************************
ACTUALLY...

On reflection given you have no ripped CD's or digital downloads then buggering around with PC's to run roon isnt really needed.

You could run the roon GUI on an Ipad or Windows Laptop and stream from that (over wifi or bluetooth, worst case) to a roon endpoint (with analogue outs if you dont have a DAC).

That still leaves the question of whether you do EQ measurements manually (which means buggering around with a PC,microphone etc) that you then configure in roon or use a high end end point with one button EQ

Peter

@JeremyFife suggested that I would be roped into a conversation about Roon, at some point. AAANNNDDD...He was correct.

Admittedly, I understand about 70% of what you are saying, at this point. If my assumptions are correct, this is simply an alternative way to reach the end goal of EQ/room correction (with some possibly advantageous side-effects). I don't have the working knowledge to understand the cost/benefits of this approach, but I soon will. Although I don't have the specific knowledge, none of this is in the least bit intimidating. We will get there.

I appreciate the suggestions for further research!!!

 

[MidFi]

As a side-note...And a question.

I ordered the Wiim last evening. Coincidentally, there was some sort of a "flash sale" on Amazon. I got it for $78 (they are almost giving this stuff away). It should arrive on Thursday.

The plan for the weekend is to listen to some Crystal Gayle and Roger Miller (all of my Crystal Gayle and Roger Miller albums are on vinyl, which is not incorporated into the system, at the moment). Don't tell my wife, but I've always had a thing for Crystal Gayle.

I will likely start putzing around with the REW software.

I will look around for the cheapest price on the UMIK (so far, it looks like that may be via Parts Express). Any suggestions about this would be great.

Is there any reason that purchasing the mic at this point would be a bad idea (e.g., the mic might come with some other piece of equipment that may end up being purchased later, some piece of equipment that I may purchase may render the mic unnecessary, etcetera)?

Thanks, again, all.

 

[MidFi]

and if, at some point it seems to be too much to deal with - blow off the tech stuff and enjoy the music... the fact you now have a dac and realize that "digital ain't the devil" - may be good enough for now...

No worries, at all.

When I was about 25 years younger, I spent a few years putting this old system together. It was INVOLVED. WE CAN DO THIS!!!

Worse turns to worst, and I just throw all of this crap out the back door, and purchase the replacement 300b amp I had initially set out to buy...throw on some records, and be done with it!!! The Altec's wouldn't know the difference.

 

[thecheapseats]

...but I've always had a thing for Crystal Gayle...

off topic - one of the best recordings of her were a few solo cuts as well as duets she did with Tom Waits (who composed) for a Coppola film that bombed at the box office long ago (One From The Heart ,'81)... first call, notable L.A. studio players and Bones Howe engineered and produced... have no idea if it's available today in any recorded form... Crystal and Tom's duets were like a fine champagne flute and a dirty shot glass having a conversation in a bar - the contrast was spellbinding... recommended...

 

[MidFi]

Here is a tidbit that may be useful to anyone with a budding interest in Altec's.

Historically, I have found the Altec's a bit rolled-off in the high frequencies. My solution to this was to add supertweeters (I went with JBL 075's, largely out of convenience). Crossed over at 7-8k, or even a bit higher, seems suitable.

As I started putting this system back together, I...once again...got into a debate with someone about whether, or not, the supertweeter is really warranted. Until recently, I would still make the case that they are.

When I connected the Aiyima amp to the system, something interesting happened. The supertweeters became largely unnecessary.

This is to say that the rolled-off highs I had always experienced are quite likely a function of tube amplifiers than of the Altec drivers themselves.

(Have I mentioned that I'm an idiot?)

It will be fun to reevaluate all of this with adequate measuring capabilities.

 

[thecheapseats]

...This is to say that the rolled-off highs I had always experienced are quite likely a function of tube amplifiers than of the Altec drivers themselves...

maybe - depends if the tube amp (or amps) are in a proper operating state... I'd guess that new soild-state amp you have may have something to do with it... it would be an easy listening test... (test seems to be the inside joke around here)... tubes have a certain character (2nd and 3rd order harmonics) and many prefer it...

what I know about tubes and electronics I first started learning while restoring a tube device as a teenager... it didn't kill me (luckily) and I maintain a collection of instruments for recording which are tube operated from the preamp to the final amp stage (no overdriven distortion - not guitar things)... niche stuff, it sounds great, just like it did last century... real 1930's technology...

 

[Waxx]

Here is a tidbit that may be useful to anyone with a budding interest in Altec's.

Historically, I have found the Altec's a bit rolled-off in the high frequencies. My solution to this was to add supertweeters (I went with JBL 075's, largely out of convenience). Crossed over at 7-8k, or even a bit higher, seems suitable.

As I started putting this system back together, I...once again...got into a debate with someone about whether, or not, the supertweeter is really warranted. Until recently, I would still make the case that they are.

When I connected the Aiyima amp to the system, something interesting happened. The supertweeters became largely unnecessary.

This is to say that the rolled-off highs I had always experienced are quite likely a function of tube amplifiers than of the Altec drivers themselves.

(Have I mentioned that I'm an idiot?)

It will be fun to reevaluate all of this with adequate measuring capabilities.

It depends on what altec and what tube amp you have (you did not mention it). Most tube amps don't roll off the high frequencies, but some of of the old Altec compression drivers do (as historically it was not need to extend that far). The famous 288 (all versions) compression driver does roll off at 15kHz, but relative slowly. Newer compression drivers have that less. Some use supertweeters crossed very high (10 to 15kHz) with it, but i don't think it's really needed. Altec systems are not neutral anyway and it's part of the vintage sound they give.

What tube amps do, is give a low damping factor (high output impendance) that often boost the bass compared to the treble because the high Rout changes (raises) the QTC of the system. But this should not affect the compression driver, only the woofer should be affected by that. But some tube amps use (cheap) output transformers with limited bandwith, that can affect the treble also. That is just a sign of bad design and bad components. A well build tube amp won't do that.

 

[JeremyFife]

off topic - one of the best recordings of her were a few solo cuts as well as duets she did with Tom Waits (who composed) for a Coppola film that bombed at the box office long ago (One From The Heart ,'81)... first call, notable L.A. studio players and Bones Howe engineered and produced... have no idea if it's available today in any recorded form... Crystal and Tom's duets were like a fine champagne flute and a dirty shot glass having a conversation in a bar - the contrast was spellbinding... recommended...

I'd forgotten this! Was going to dig out my vinyl copy when I realised I can stream...

Check out Music From The Original Motion Picture "One From The Heart" by Tom Waits & Crystal Gayle on Amazon Music
https://music.amazon.co.uk/albums/B001GU9J28?ref=dm_sh_rjzo7U4lm6KaglOGmi1BuSZJe

Old habits... lovely stuff though

 

[JeremyFife]

As a side-note...And a question.

I ordered the Wiim last evening. Coincidentally, there was some sort of a "flash sale" on Amazon. I got it for $78 (they are almost giving this stuff away). It should arrive on Thursday.

The plan for the weekend is to listen to some Crystal Gayle and Roger Miller (all of my Crystal Gayle and Roger Miller albums are on vinyl, which is not incorporated into the system, at the moment). Don't tell my wife, but I've always had a thing for Crystal Gayle.

I will likely start putzing around with the REW software.

I will look around for the cheapest price on the UMIK (so far, it looks like that may be via Parts Express). Any suggestions about this would be great.

Is there any reason that purchasing the mic at this point would be a bad idea (e.g., the mic might come with some other piece of equipment that may end up being purchased later, some piece of equipment that I may purchase may render the mic unnecessary, etcetera)?

Thanks, again, all.

The UMIK (1 or 2) are stand-alone usb mics, no special software or drivers needed if you have a windows pc and REW. Purchasing now is sensible - it's an essential tool that you will use many times.

Only caveat is that each individual microphone needs a unique "calibration file" (2 files actually). These are typically downloaded after purchase based on the mics serial number. Worth checking that you can do that - I assume it's not a problem with any new mic though.

 

[MidFi]

The UMIK (1 or 2) are stand-alone usb mics, no special software or drivers needed if you have a windows pc and REW. Purchasing now is sensible - it's an essential tool that you will use many times.

Only caveat is that each individual microphone needs a unique "calibration file" (2 files actually). These are typically downloaded after purchase based on the mics serial number. Worth checking that you can do that - I assume it's not a problem with any new mic though.

There have been some interesting comments above about the tube amps/horn drivers above. I will get back to that later on.

Also, the Tom Waits/Crystal Gayle tunes will definitely be on the menu for the weekend.

I have a question about the last sentence, here. You say, "Worth checking that you can do that." I plan to purchase the mic new. Is there anything else I should be "checking" to ensure that I "can do that?"

 

[Waxx]

There have been some interesting comments above about the tube amps/horn drivers above. I will get back to that later on.

Also, the Tom Waits/Crystal Gayle tunes will definitely be on the menu for the weekend.

I have a question about the last sentence, here. You say, "Worth checking that you can do that." I plan to purchase the mic new. Is there anything else I should be "checking" to ensure that I "can do that?"

Get a mic stand if you don't have one already, and one of this type so you can easely move the mic to the right position:

 

[Plcamp]

Don’t think anyone mentioned the option of an optically connected tv as your source, with an attached ~$50 google tv device you can use any android app as an A/V source and it includes a remote…so I just mentioned it.

Aside from that, I agree with the Flex dsp recommendation…but with the warning that playing around with Minidsp capability can be a (very) time consuming hobby.

 

[JeremyFife]

There have been some interesting comments above about the tube amps/horn drivers above. I will get back to that later on.

Also, the Tom Waits/Crystal Gayle tunes will definitely be on the menu for the weekend.

I have a question about the last sentence, here. You say, "Worth checking that you can do that." I plan to purchase the mic new. Is there anything else I should be "checking" to ensure that I "can do that?"

From the Parts Express site - "It is provided with a unique calibration file based on the serial number" - you're all good, no issues and nothing else to check!

 

[MidFi]

It depends on what altec and what tube amp you have (you did not mention it). Most tube amps don't roll off the high frequencies, but some of of the old Altec compression drivers do (as historically it was not need to extend that far). The famous 288 (all versions) compression driver does roll off at 15kHz, but relative slowly. Newer compression drivers have that less. Some use supertweeters crossed very high (10 to 15kHz) with it, but i don't think it's really needed. Altec systems are not neutral anyway and it's part of the vintage sound they give.

What tube amps do, is give a low damping factor (high output impendance) that often boost the bass compared to the treble because the high Rout changes (raises) the QTC of the system. But this should not affect the compression driver, only the woofer should be affected by that. But some tube amps use (cheap) output transformers with limited bandwith, that can affect the treble also. That is just a sign of bad design and bad components. A well build tube amp won't do that.

The Altec's are 902-8b on 511b.

When the system was last in operation, there were 2 Eico HF-12 mono integrateds and Dared 300b pseudo-monoblocks. I still have the EICO's, but no longer have the 300b amps (despite still having the tubes).

Thinking back, one thing that did frequently seem to be present was SOMETHING that was EICO branded, whether it be a preamp, amp, or both. Especially during the earliest partis of this journey, there was WAY TOO MUCH trial and error. I wasted a BUNCH of money. I guess that, aside from some of the dual-concentric control knobs, I have always appreciated the EICO stuff.

Perhaps this may shed some light on your thoughts.

 

[MidFi]

Get a mic stand if you don't have one already, and one of this type so you can easely move the mic to the right position:

I'm glad you pointed that out.

 

[MidFi]

Don’t think anyone mentioned the option of an optically connected tv as your source, with an attached ~$50 google tv device you can use any android app as an A/V source and it includes a remote…so I just mentioned it.

Aside from that, I agree with the Flex dsp recommendation…but with the warning that playing around with Minidsp capability can be a (very) time consuming hobby.

Unfortunately, I don't do TV, at all.

My wife should love this. I predict a conversation about "neglect/abandonment/ignoring" in my future.

 

[MidFi]

From the Parts Express site - "It is provided with a unique calibration file based on the serial number" - you're all good, no issues and nothing else to check!

Perfect.

Thanks, again.

 

[thecheapseats]

I'm glad you pointed that out.

if you already have one, a full size camera tripod (with a few female to male thread adapters) will work too...