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Things I Thought I Knew Were Wrong...Where To Go From Here?

BDWoody

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Has technology advanced to the point that digital music can be rendered tolerable, even enjoyable?

Welcome to the forum, and welcome to 2023!

Has technology advanced to the point that solid state amplification can be rendered tolerable, even enjoyable?

You are answering your own questions... Decidedly yes.

The third issue that presents itself involves the old Altec/JBL speakers. NOPE!!! I have not found that they suck. However, given that everything else that I thought I knew was wrong, am I wrong about this too?!?!?

Not if you enjoy them. Speakers and other transducers are yet to catch up with the incredibly high fidelity available from modern electronics, and how a speaker performs has everything to do with the room it is in, so if you've got a fit you like, that's awesome.

The ten million dollar question is, “Where do I go from here?”

You could always get a calibrated mic and do some simple measurements with free software to see how things look, and get an idea of whether you've got anything particularly nasty going on you might want to address.



It really has gotten much easier to get great sound than ever before, and the fact that you are even open to the idea that it might be this easy puts you way ahead of the game.
 
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I'm finding my way here too - it's fascinating.

For streaming, subscribe to whatever service appeals to you. If you go with WiiM then the app (phone, rather than laptop) can basically use your subscription to play music directly. Your phone becomes a remote control, it's not in the signal path.
You can use the WiiM app itself, or use the Tidal (or other) app and 'cast' it to the WiiM but that's a feature to worry about later - I don't bother.
It's much, much easier to do than to explain!

Give it a try.
Eventually you'll get sucked into a Roon conversation but start simply
You are at least 225 comments ahead of me. I HAVE SOME WORK TO DO!!!

Your note about the phone not being in the signal path is a key piece that I was missing. AWESOME.

...frantically Google's "Roon."

Thanks a bunch for your time/insight.
 
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MidFi

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Welcome to the forum, and welcome to 2023!



You are answering your own questions... Decidedly yes.



Not if you enjoy them. Speakers and other transducers are yet to catch up with the incredibly high fidelity available from modern electronics, and how a speaker performs has everything to do with the room it is in, so if you've got a fit you like, that's awesome.



You could always get a calibrated mic and do some simple measurements with free software to see how things look, and get an idea of whether you've got anything particularly nasty going on you might want to address.



It really has gotten much easier to get great sound than ever before, and the fact that you are even open to the idea that it might be this easy puts you way ahead of the game.
Thanks for the welcome!!! Especially the welcome to 2023!!! I've been hiding under a rock for 25 years!!!

Thanks for providing evidence supporting some of my newfound suspicions. Perhaps I'm not losing my mind, after all. (Well, that may still be debatable.)

From your comment, it looks as though the Altec's may end up staying put. My wife won't love that. Oddly, she is upset that we may not have big tube amps for the next leg of this journey. She likes the 300b's. She thinks they are pretty.

I have definitely been looking into getting a mic. I have been playing with some of the phone apps, but realize there is a missing link.

I am going to be "all ears" for a while, as I attempt to navigate this new arena. If nothing else, I just have to let some of my old assumptions go. I really appreciate your time!!!
 

Waxx

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Don't toss the Altec's, they are special speakers, sounding extremely good while being very coloured (and it seems you like them).

But it's true that tech moved on, that digital and class D is not that cold sterile anymore. I use old and new tech mixed, i have a tube amp and i have a modern class D (Ncore) amp and love both, idem with vinyl vs hi res digital with a good dac.

Maybe if the budget allows it get some super neutral speaker like Neumann (or Genelec, altough i don't like them that much) and put it in another room (or as office speakers if you got an office) so you also know that kind of sound. It's different, but can be very good, especially with Neumann speakers. And it won't cost 10mio ;), even with the big KH420's or so....
 

Philbo King

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One of the major advances in the last 50 yrars of speaker design is use of Theile-Small calculations to get the best possible bass without having several cubic yards of box volume. It would have been inconceivable in the 1960s to get 40 or 50 Hz response from a 5" woofer...
 

fpitas

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Don't toss the Altec's, they are special speakers, sounding extremely good while being very coloured (and it seems you like them).
Agreed, with the caveat that with modern DSP they no longer need to sound colored.
 
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After processing all of this for another 24 hours, and accommodating some of the ideas presented here into my thinking, I am left with a few questions. They are actually fairly basic questions, but perhaps you all can help me streamline this process. I would appreciate any insights.

As you have read, I purchased a couple of pieces of equipment (a DAC and an amplifier) with the intention of using them until I got my desired equipment serviced/upgraded. Given how impressed I have been with them, I am very much considering foregoing some of my former plans, and "checking out the digital/solid state things" for at least a while. Given how stupid cheap these things have been, I am currently WAY UNDER BUDGET in this project. I am curious to know if there would be any benefit to investing in what could be better equipment.

1) Would there really be an audible difference between the Aiyima 07 Pro amplifier and say a Hypex or Purifi amplifier? If so, what differences might I expect? (Keep in mind that I don't care one bit about power. I have fairly sensitive speakers. I don't care one bit about aesthetics. I have some of the ugliest speakers on the planet. I also still have some of the ugliest amplifiers on the planet.)

2) Would there really be an audible difference between the SMSL DAC (D-6) and some other DAC? If so, what differences might I expect?

3) Would adding a preamp to this setup improve sound quality in any way?

4) At present, I am leaning towards purchasing a Wiim streamer. Can I operate this thing using my laptop, rather than my cellphone? Is there a subscription service that I should prefer? (I am used to the tedious processes of biasing tubes, and cleaning records. I am not all that interested in "convenience," or "bells and whistles," only sound quality.)

5) Aside from other things already mentioned in the thread, am I missing anything else?


Thanks a million for all of the contributions to this thread!!! I really do appreciate it!!!
 

JeremyFife

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Honestly, this is where it gets really interesting and where the learning curve starts to slope up. I'm just getting my head around this - others on here are proper experts.
My thoughts;

Don't bother upgrading DAC, Amp or adding a pre-amp. Not yet anyway, the improvement will be minimal. This is not where you should focus.

Do NOT buy any expensive cables, ever :)

Add a WiiM mini. Pick any service: Spotify is good for recommending new music, Qobuz is decent for classical and has a good range, Tidal is a bit tangled up with "MQA" as a technology which is worth avoiding. Amazon works well on the WiiM. I'd have gone for Qobuz or Spotify if I wasn't tied to Amazon. Don't worry about which service you start with though, just pick one.
WiiM's desktop app is atrocious - use a smartphone.
If you want to use your laptop, then don't bother with the WiiM - just connect your laptop directly to the DAC via usb cable (use the laptop as the streamer).

Here's the good bit, here's where to focus and learn....
The biggest impacts on your sound are Room, then Speakers.
Keep your speakers (for now) and start looking at Room Correction (physical changes) and EQ (software).
Before you can do this you have to measure your system in your room - that baseline is essential before you can improve anything.
That's a proper measurement microphone (umic) and software for your laptop (REW is standard). I don't know enough about this to advise more - but there is plenty of help here including the author of REW!

Measurement, then adjustment - that's where it's at now. That will show you objectively if you need should change anything.

Alternatively, just add a streamer and listen to music:)

Good luck, and enjoy where this takes you
 

antcollinet

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Welcome to the forum. You won't believe how refreshing it is to see someone new here who already has an open mind.

You've had a lot of good advice already. I think the best so far is to get a Umik1 and REW and just do some measurements. Just learning that is a fun process.

Regarding amp upgrade. There is quite a bit of measurable improvement between the Ayima and Purify amps. Biggest benefits I'd suggest are the ruler flat load independent frequency response, and the oodles of power, meaning you should never run in to clipping (though probably your horn based speakers are pretty sensitive). Whether that will result in a huge audible improvement for you is debatable.

Amir has tested both amps here, so you could compare the reviews.




Oh - and just a pet peeve. Midfi or Hifi - it is no longer about price. It is about performance. :cool:
 

Waxx

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I wold not change much on actual your setup but maybe dsp. So if you want to spend money, get a minidsp flex with dirac, even on those old systems that can have a very good impact. I did program a minidsp HD (not even the actual good ones) as active crossover for a Altec/JBL hybrid system (Altec 288-8K tweeter in JBL 2366A horn (with adapter) and Altec 416-8B in a custom Onken cabinet designed for it) and that did bring that system more close to the 21st century without loosing the altec sound.

You could also replace the tube amps by solid state, but then i would go for lower power class D, like one of the many itterations of the Hypex Ncore NC122MP module (i use the one of Audiophonics) that gives 75w in 8R. But then you will loose the typical tube amp sound (high harmonic distortion, low damping factor) which may not what you want. The Aiyima 07 is a good basic amp, but need the right psu to do that (and that seems to be complicated). The Audiophonics and other itterations of the Hypex Ncore MP series is all in one, plug and play, and the lower power ones are not that expensive. And they are also among the cleanest amps arround, even the older NCore (without x) versions. Altec is not made for high power amps, even the 416-8B woofer only can handle 50w i thought (but is very sensitive).

But again, the biggest impact will be adding a dsp crossover to such system, then you can make it sound like you want (within some limitations of the drivers off course).

As for streamers, i don't stream much, but i think a good computer with a good dac is as good as the best streamers arround, and more flexible in use and upgrade. Then you need music software, but many, some free (Foobar), some paying (JRiver, Roon, Audio Nirvana) are arround and are often more usefull than the limited software possibilities of a streaming device. And if you only use streaming services (no local files), even the app of streaming devices is enough as music software and often also remote controllable by your phone. You more need to look at the convenience here, as the tech is relative mature and on sound there are little to no differences (ignoring dsp possibilities of some) between the different streaming devices (dedicated or computer based). The difference in sound is the dac, but any modern dac is at least decent enough to be almost transparent...

So to be more specific on what you can do to upgrade the system:

- Replace the analog crossover with a good dsp (MiniDSP flex with dirac) and a measurement microphone (Minidsp UMIK-1) and REW software (freeware) to finetune the speaker.
- Get modern amplifiers, but relative low power devices with 4 channels in total, like 2 x the Audiophonics MPA-S125NC stereo amp (in Europe) or the Buckeye Hypex NC252MP 4ch Amplifier (in the USA).
Get a way to stream or play digital files in high quality (including a modern dac if you don't have one yet). If you got the mindsp flex, the dac part is already done as it includes a very good dac next to the dsp part.
 
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Honestly, this is where it gets really interesting and where the learning curve starts to slope up. I'm just getting my head around this - others on here are proper experts.
My thoughts;

Don't bother upgrading DAC, Amp or adding a pre-amp. Not yet anyway, the improvement will be minimal. This is not where you should focus.

Do NOT buy any expensive cables, ever :)

Add a WiiM mini. Pick any service: Spotify is good for recommending new music, Qobuz is decent for classical and has a good range, Tidal is a bit tangled up with "MQA" as a technology which is worth avoiding. Amazon works well on the WiiM. I'd have gone for Qobuz or Spotify if I wasn't tied to Amazon. Don't worry about which service you start with though, just pick one.
WiiM's desktop app is atrocious - use a smartphone.
If you want to use your laptop, then don't bother with the WiiM - just connect your laptop directly to the DAC via usb cable (use the laptop as the streamer).

Here's the good bit, here's where to focus and learn....
The biggest impacts on your sound are Room, then Speakers.
Keep your speakers (for now) and start looking at Room Correction (physical changes) and EQ (software).
Before you can do this you have to measure your system in your room - that baseline is essential before you can improve anything.
That's a proper measurement microphone (umic) and software for your laptop (REW is standard). I don't know enough about this to advise more - but there is plenty of help here including the author of REW!

Measurement, then adjustment - that's where it's at now. That will show you objectively if you need should change anything.

Alternatively, just add a streamer and listen to music:)

Good luck, and enjoy where this takes you
Thanks a million, yet again.

Agreed: I do get the sense that the learning curve is about to get a bit steeper. I suppose it's all in fun. If I screw it up...nobody dies!!!

Quite possible: I can see how attempting to upgrade my modest equipment at this point could turn out to result in little actual improvement in sound quality. In my brief time here, I have already seen the statements "beyond the capabilities of human hearing" and "chasing SINAD numbers" a number of times. I certainly won't waste any money until I'm reasonably convinced that spending it would result in significant improvement.

NO!!!: I will NOT be spending money on expensive cables. I was shown all of this many years ago. I don't know much about modern hifi equipment, but I have a bit of experience with cables. I do have what seems to be a failing RCA cable that I have had for about 30 years. Beyond that, I probably won't even eliminate the masking-taped unions between bits of speaker wire I have cobbled together!!!

Yes: I will likely purchase the Wiim this evening. I'm not thrilled about having to use the cellphone for ANYTHING. I will probably just have to get used to it. I don't want to use the laptop as a streamer. I would have to run cables across a walkway (no-go). Chances are, I'll do the free trial with CRAPAZON, and do more research from there.

Yes: Overwhelming consensus is that acquiring a mic is the next step in improving sound quality. I am a self-professed idiot (re: previous comment), but not too stupid to listen.
AAANNNDDD...HERE COMES THAT LEARNING CURVE INCLINE!!!!!


Your contributions in this discussion have been invaluable. Can't tell you how much I appreciate you!!!
 
OP
M

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Welcome to the forum. You won't believe how refreshing it is to see someone new here who already has an open mind.

You've had a lot of good advice already. I think the best so far is to get a Umik1 and REW and just do some measurements. Just learning that is a fun process.

Regarding amp upgrade. There is quite a bit of measurable improvement between the Ayima and Purify amps. Biggest benefits I'd suggest are the ruler flat load independent frequency response, and the oodles of power, meaning you should never run in to clipping (though probably your horn based speakers are pretty sensitive). Whether that will result in a huge audible improvement for you is debatable.

Amir has tested both amps here, so you could compare the reviews.




Oh - and just a pet peeve. Midfi or Hifi - it is no longer about price. It is about performance. :cool:
Thanks a bunch for the insights!!! I fully suspect you have pushed me a bit further in the right direction.
 
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M

MidFi

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I wold not change much on actual your setup but maybe dsp. So if you want to spend money, get a minidsp flex with dirac, even on those old systems that can have a very good impact. I did program a minidsp HD (not even the actual good ones) as active crossover for a Altec/JBL hybrid system (Altec 288-8K tweeter in JBL 2366A horn (with adapter) and Altec 416-8B in a custom Onken cabinet designed for it) and that did bring that system more close to the 21st century without loosing the altec sound.

You could also replace the tube amps by solid state, but then i would go for lower power class D, like one of the many itterations of the Hypex Ncore NC122MP module (i use the one of Audiophonics) that gives 75w in 8R. But then you will loose the typical tube amp sound (high harmonic distortion, low damping factor) which may not what you want. The Aiyima 07 is a good basic amp, but need the right psu to do that (and that seems to be complicated). The Audiophonics and other itterations of the Hypex Ncore MP series is all in one, plug and play, and the lower power ones are not that expensive. And they are also among the cleanest amps arround, even the older NCore (without x) versions. Altec is not made for high power amps, even the 416-8B woofer only can handle 50w i thought (but is very sensitive).

But again, the biggest impact will be adding a dsp crossover to such system, then you can make it sound like you want (within some limitations of the drivers off course).

As for streamers, i don't stream much, but i think a good computer with a good dac is as good as the best streamers arround, and more flexible in use and upgrade. Then you need music software, but many, some free (Foobar), some paying (JRiver, Roon, Audio Nirvana) are arround and are often more usefull than the limited software possibilities of a streaming device. And if you only use streaming services (no local files), even the app of streaming devices is enough as music software and often also remote controllable by your phone. You more need to look at the convenience here, as the tech is relative mature and on sound there are little to no differences (ignoring dsp possibilities of some) between the different streaming devices (dedicated or computer based). The difference in sound is the dac, but any modern dac is at least decent enough to be almost transparent...

So to be more specific on what you can do to upgrade the system:

- Replace the analog crossover with a good dsp (MiniDSP flex with dirac) and a measurement microphone (Minidsp UMIK-1) and REW software (freeware) to finetune the speaker.
- Get modern amplifiers, but relative low power devices with 4 channels in total, like 2 x the Audiophonics MPA-S125NC stereo amp (in Europe) or the Buckeye Hypex NC252MP 4ch Amplifier (in the USA).
Get a way to stream or play digital files in high quality (including a modern dac if you don't have one yet). If you got the mindsp flex, the dac part is already done as it includes a very good dac next to the dsp part.
Some incredibly useful comments here.

Admittedly, I don't know the first thing about DSP, but have seen it mentioned a few times. I am envisioning some sort of automated EQ/correction, but I could be way off base. I will certainly know more about it by Sunday.

Historically, I have used 4 tube amps to drive these speakers. This all sounds pretty familiar. What you are suggesting could very well end up being a go-to solution.

Streamer will be one the way tonight. Mic will be on the way in short order. We'll go from there.

It will be interesting to find out what Altec's sound like in the 21st century.

Thanks a million for taking the time.
 

bodhi

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I disagree with the learning curve thing if that means that when going objective route there would be loads to learn to get to good sound.

Of course there is a lot to learn, I heard some have made it their career for decades. It's just that it doesn't take that much learning to get 95/100 listening experience based on your current limitations (space, money, partner's sense of design etc).
 

Timcognito

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4) At present, I am leaning towards purchasing a Wiim streamer. Can I operate this thing using my laptop, rather than my cellphone? Is there a subscription service that I should prefer? (I am used to the tedious processes of biasing tubes, and cleaning records. I am not all that interested in "convenience," or "bells and whistles," only sound quality.)
For less $100 one can often find a 10" Android tablet that can be your dedicated remote. Its nice to have big screen that you can move around and still use the internet at same time.
Example: https://www.nicesnkr.com/product/samsung-12-4-inch-galaxy-tab-s8-128gb-wi-fi-graphite/
Look here for more: https://slickdeals.net/
 

thecheapseats

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Some incredibly useful comments here.

Admittedly, I don't know the first thing about DSP, but have seen it mentioned a few times. I am envisioning some sort of automated EQ/correction, but I could be way off base. I will certainly know more about it by Sunday.

Historically, I have used 4 tube amps to drive these speakers. This all sounds pretty familiar. What you are suggesting could very well end up being a go-to solution.

Streamer will be one the way tonight. Mic will be on the way in short order. We'll go from there.

It will be interesting to find out what Altec's sound like in the 21st century.

Thanks a million for taking the time.
just my two cents from the cheap seats... all the suggestions to hump the learning curve to null out eq anomalies in your listening room (as best you can) with an inexpensive hardware/software process that just wasn't avaialble years ago when you put your system together - is probably the biggest bang for the buck you can do today for (your words), "[a] system [that] had been sitting for quite a few years"... take it one step at a time - ask questions... best of luck...
 

fatoldgit

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As much as I detest Roon (for reasons beyond this thread), given you have been under a rock for 25 years (and hence your digital audio skills might be lacking), it makes sense to

(1) Get roon on the monthly sub
(2) get some Roon endpoint (others can suggest what)
(3) take out a sub to one of the streaming services supported by Roon (I use Qobuz for its quality)
(4) Given Roon comes with its own DSP EQ, you get all you need to get into streaming in one package

NOW....

You will have to bugger around with PC's to get roon going and you will also have to bugger around with PC's to measure your room (say with the REW package) before applying EQ. If thats beyond your skill set then maybe wherever you live is some company/dealer that can do this for you or invest some time reading many of the tutorials available on the web.

The other more expensive route is to get a more expensive roon endpoint device with say Dirac as part of its "stuff" which makes the whole EQ process easy.

Summary:

- Get roon matched with a streaming service
- If you have the time, get a cheap roon endpoint, bugger around with PC's to get Roon up and do the same for EQ
- if you dont have time or the inclination, get a more device with the roon endpoint built in and with "one button" EQ such as with Dirac
*******************************************************************************
ACTUALLY...

On reflection given you have no ripped CD's or digital downloads then buggering around with PC's to run roon isnt really needed.

You could run the roon GUI on an Ipad or Windows Laptop and stream from that (over wifi or bluetooth, worst case) to a roon endpoint (with analogue outs if you dont have a DAC).

That still leaves the question of whether you do EQ measurements manually (which means buggering around with a PC,microphone etc) that you then configure in roon or use a high end end point with one button EQ

Peter
 
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MidFi

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I disagree with the learning curve thing if that means that when going objective route there would be loads to learn to get to good sound.

Of course there is a lot to learn, I heard some have made it their career for decades. It's just that it doesn't take that much learning to get 95/100 listening experience based on your current limitations (space, money, partner's sense of design etc).
This is a fair take.

In any case, there appear to be some incredibly knowledgeable and talented folks around here, who also seem to be willing to go out of their way to help. I fully suspect that we'll get this system pretty close to its potential without any fatalities.
 
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MidFi

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For less $100 one can often find a 10" Android tablet that can be your dedicated remote. Its nice to have big screen that you can move around and still use the internet at same time.
Example: https://www.nicesnkr.com/product/samsung-12-4-inch-galaxy-tab-s8-128gb-wi-fi-graphite/
Look here for more: https://slickdeals.net/
Brilliant!!!

I bet we even have one of these laying around here somewhere (maybe not ten inches, but probably more than suitable).

You are, hereby, granted hero status for the day.
 
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