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The Truth About Vinyl Records

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Sal1950

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Still a amazing thing that this technology that was invented that long ago for consumers and not as studio gear holds up this well even today.
Only the speakers, the very best of the day, driven by a digital front end and $100,000 Silbatone-Morrison-Bae WE 205D amps.

"The Silbatone design team is of un-paralleled intelligence and consists of my No.1 friend and primary Tall-Wizard, J.C. Morrison, and his legendary partner, Dr. Stefano Bae—the nicest, most humble PhD (in material sciences) wizard I know. This team's stated goal: "Not to profit in the marketplace but to achieve musical enjoyment and contribute to the evolution of sound system design."

Yea right, ROTFLMAO
 
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computer-audiophile

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... primary Tall-Wizard, JC Morrison,
JC Morrison, the last time I saw him was over 10 years ago at a scene meeting, when he made a completely foul-mouthed comment about the sound of full-range speakers. He already had hearing aids in both ears at the time. I wondered how he could hear that at all. I found him very arrogant and rude.

Well, that's just an individual observation, but I always find it good when I can get an impression for myself of a person or situation and I can make up my own mind about it.
 
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RichB

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I think it's worth keeping in mind that there is a difference between someone like Gelder whose job it is to work and struggle with mastering all day long, listening for the most minute issues...and the results we as consumers can experience.

As I've mentioned (and others as well): I have vinyl records and CDs made from the same original masters (of course the LP recieved a tweaked master for pressing), and the sonic advantages for the digital version were to my ears very subtle at best. Both sound fabulous, and virtually all the sonic information seems there on the vinyl version. So, did that particular engineer find it frusterating to master for vinyl? Sure. Does his job experience mean that the end result on vinyl is doomed to sound "terribly different or much worse" from the digital version? Not necessarily.

From another highly regarded mastering engineer, Bob Ludwig:


HQ: In addition to mastering The Whole Love, you approved the vinyl test pressings. What do you listen for when approving these?
BL: The first priority is that the vinyl sounded as close as possible to my high resolution mastered files. As I sold my lathe years ago, I worked with Chris Bellman from Bernie Grundman Mastering in Hollywood to be sure he would cut it as I would have cut it and indeed I’m 100% satisfied. The test pressings, being that that are cut from high resolution files, sound a little better to me than the CD does which is how it should be.

Much heralded mastering engineer Bernie Grundman
talked about mastering for vinyl in a youtube interview. He pointed out that when mastering generally, especially for the digital world, they have to consider how it is likely to be listened to, which very often in noisier backgrounds, doing other things while listening etc. So they have to try to master for a similar loudness to everything else likely being played. On the other hand with vinyl, due to the nature of the medium, people tend to listen more intently to vinyl, not as some playlist mixed in with everything else, so "We tend not to do a lot of processing when it comes to vinyl." "We prefer to let the dynamics that were naturally built in to it speak. We want it to be dynamic...and we want to enhance the quality of it too." "...if we can improve the quality, spectrum balance, all these things that help it communicate better." He said you make test cuts and....sometimes...if you don't get exactly what you wanted out of the test cut, you have to do some modifications. Then you choose the right way to solve it and still get most of what you want.

So not all mastering engineers seem to share as dim and hopeless a view of what you can do on vinyl as Van Gelder. And there isn't some across-the-board severe "fidelity reducing" technique that happens with every vinyl album. Depending on the nature of the content, the result can be very close to the original master. Some content is more challenging to press, but a good engineer does his best to maintain high sound quality as much fidelity as possible, so the differences from the original aren't so obvious as they could be.

So...as always...yeah apples to apples digital is more capable and accurate. But in terms of real world results and all the variables, the difference isn't always necessarily dramatic in favor of digital.
True, perhaps vinyl may not be dramatically different, that is hardly an endorsement

- Rich
 

Sal1950

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So not all mastering engineers seem to share as dim and hopeless a view of what you can do on vinyl as Van Gelder. And there isn't some across-the-board severe "fidelity reducing" technique that happens with every vinyl album. Depending on the nature of the content, the result can be very close to the original master. Some content is more challenging to press, but a good engineer does his best to maintain high sound quality as much fidelity as possible, so the differences from the original aren't so obvious as they could be.
As long as huge compromises are make to the vinyl master.
Just more vinyl/analog fan boy KoolAid BS.
 

ahofer

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Justdafactsmaam

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JJ had some comments about vinyl and accuracy vs preference in this talk.

Post in thread 'Announcement. AES Presentation on “What is Accuracy” by our very own member @j_j_ or James D. (jj) Johnston - Chief Scientist - Immersion Networks'
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/announcement-aes-presentation-on-“what-is-accuracy”-by-our-very-own-member-j_j_-or-james-d-jj-johnston-chief-scientist-immersion-networks.50589/post-1900569
“You can not argue preference. If someone says they like vinyl better don’t argue with them.”

Thank you JJ
 
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MattHooper

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JJ had some comments about vinyl and accuracy vs preference in this talk.

Post in thread 'Announcement. AES Presentation on “What is Accuracy” by our very own member @j_j_ or James D. (jj) Johnston - Chief Scientist - Immersion Networks'
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/announcement-aes-presentation-on-“what-is-accuracy”-by-our-very-own-member-j_j_-or-james-d-jj-johnston-chief-scientist-immersion-networks.50589/post-1900569

Thanks. Do you know the vid time at which he speaks about vinyl/accuracy?
 

MattHooper

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True, perhaps vinyl may not be dramatically different, that is hardly an endorsement

- Rich

It's not meant to be in any general sense of course.

But it could be in certain conditions. For instance if someone likes the physical aspects related to records and turntable, but also cars about sound quality, then insofar as records can sound pretty similar to digital, that's some level of endorsement. In other words, you can be an audiophile, enjoy records and not make major sacrifices in sound quality.
 

Sal1950

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J. Gordon Holt on Accuracy vs Preference,

"Audio actually used to have a goal: perfect reproduction of the sound of real music performed in a real space. That was found difficult to achieve, and it was abandoned when most music lovers, who almost never heard anything except amplified music anyway, forgot what "the real thing" had sounded like. Today, "good" sound is whatever one likes. As Art Dudley so succinctly said [in his January 2004 "Listening," see "Letters," p.9], fidelity is irrelevant to music.

Since the only measure of sound quality is that the listener likes it, that has pretty well put an end to audio advancement, because different people rarely agree about sound quality. Abandoning the acoustical-instrument standard, and the mindless acceptance of voodoo science, were not parts of my original vision.

I remember you strongly feeling back in 1992 that multichannel/surround reproduction was the only chance the industry had for getting back on course.

With fidelity in stagnation, spatiality was the only area of improvement left."

 

Justdafactsmaam

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J. Gordon Holt on Accuracy vs Preference,

"Audio actually used to have a goal: perfect reproduction of the sound of real music performed in a real space. That was found difficult to achieve, and it was abandoned when most music lovers, who almost never heard anything except amplified music anyway, forgot what "the real thing" had sounded like. Today, "good" sound is whatever one likes. As Art Dudley so succinctly said [in his January 2004 "Listening," see "Letters," p.9], fidelity is irrelevant to music.

Since the only measure of sound quality is that the listener likes it, that has pretty well put an end to audio advancement, because different people rarely agree about sound quality. Abandoning the acoustical-instrument standard, and the mindless acceptance of voodoo science, were not parts of my original vision.

I remember you strongly feeling back in 1992 that multichannel/surround reproduction was the only chance the industry had for getting back on course.

With fidelity in stagnation, spatiality was the only area of improvement left."

J Gordon Holt’s commentary is most definitely interesting and relevant to JJ’s lecture. I think at this point in his life he proved to be a sharp critic of audio journalism that was ironically rooted in his own work when he created Stereophile. His points about DBTs and the rejection of them in audio evaluation were on point and cut to the bone coming from him. But let’s look at his opinions on “accuracy” and see how they stack up with JJ’s lecture.

"Audio actually used to have a goal: perfect reproduction of the sound of real music performed in a real space.”

JJ’s initial point was any measure of accuracy requires an accessible objective reference (singular) against which to measure. “Real music performed in a real space” fails on several levels, accessibility and singularity. We can’t access it nor can we unify it into a single point. That specific goal was doomed from the get go.

“That was found difficult to achieve,”

Actually impossible.

“ and it was abandoned when most music lovers, who almost never heard anything except amplified music anyway, forgot what "the real thing" had sounded like.”

And this is where JGH went off the rails. “The real thing” isn’t one objective and easily accessed “thing” It is elusive and ever changing. Not the fault of the consumers of audio. And more importantly not the reason audio journalism went off the rails. Quite the opposite. It was the likes of Harry Pearson and The Absolute Sound that took this idea JGH advocated and proceeded to run with it in completely the wrong direction. By not understanding the inherent problems with using live sound as an objective reference and ignoring psychoacoustics audio journalism began to conflate preferences with accuracy under the assumption that if something sounded *subjectively more realistic to them* that it meant it was objectively more accurate. And when objective measurements conflicted with their anecdotal observations of subjective realism the measurements were the problem not the inherent unreliability of their auditioning protocols.


Today, "good" sound is whatever one likes. As Art Dudley so succinctly said [in his January 2004 "Listening," see "Letters," p.9], fidelity is irrelevant to music.”

It’s always been that! Before audio when all humans had was live music, good sound was whatever one liked. Period. What differentiated a Stradivarius from a dime store fiddle before audio? Mostly Strads sound subjectively better to most listeners than a cheap violin. Yet both are equally “real.” Tell that to a disciple of HP and watch them lose their minds. “Live music is live music! That’s the reference!!!!” What if it sounds bad? “LIVE MUSIC IS THE REFERENCE!!!!!”

Fidelity is only relevant in so far as it serves our subjective ideals of what sounds good. Accuracy and objective measurements are our compass and road map. Our destinations are whatever we ****ing want.
 
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Newman

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“You can not argue preference. If someone says they like vinyl better don’t argue with them.”

Thank you JJ
Perhaps because it's hopeless....like arguing with someone who says they like $10,000 interconnects better, or they like crystal pyramids on the CD player lid better...
 

Justdafactsmaam

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Perhaps because it's hopeless....like arguing with someone who says they like $10,000 interconnects better, or they like crystal pyramids on the CD player lid better...
No, not because it’s hopeless. Because preferences are inarguable and it’s just an obnoxious audiophile pissing contest to disrespect other peoples’ preferences.

And it’s totally different than cables. Unless you actually think that like cables, vinyl and digital are indistinguishable
 

Sal1950

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Fidelity is only relevant in so far as it serves our subjective ideals of what sounds good. Accuracy and objective measurements are our compass and road map. Our destinations are whatever we ****ing want.
Only when you have no interest in hearing what the artists and mixing engineers want us to hear.
You are then perfectly welcome to take the hard work of these folks and screw it up in any way that pleases you.

But Gordon and (much later) I, came up in a time when all the sources and reproduction gear were badly flawed.
We fought for decades to advance the SOTA in all areas so that our playback at home had some resemblance
to what the microphones and then the engineers heard. We loudly celebrated each small step that was made towards making
the entire path a bit more like a "straight wire with gain".
This hobby has always had only one real goal, High Fidelity. The biggest real shame is exactly as Gordon saw it, that much of the high end media, both print and web based, have become much more interested in the Almighty Dollar than any concern over High Fidelity. They will tell you any lie, distort any truth, in the interest of selling yet another $15,000 power cord. And yes along with that is the fact that Vinyl and the LP has about as much a place in a modern 2024 HiFi system as a Edison cylinder, one is just a bit more distorted than the other.
 

antcollinet

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Any chance this thread can be merged into the vinyl renaissance one. It is just ploughing up the same overworked soil.
 

Sal1950

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Any chance this thread can be merged into the vinyl renaissance one. It is just ploughing up the same overworked soil.
I kinda agree but what as a science based website are we to do with the situation that many today come here
from the subjective side believing that accuracy in reproduction is an irrelevant issue. It comes up in the
conversation from many corners like the LP, to very distorted tube gear, to really screwed up speaker
designs?
Maybe more appropriate would be?
 

Bob from Florida

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Any chance this thread can be merged into the vinyl renaissance one. It is just ploughing up the same overworked soil.
You mean just have one "flaming" thread. Dream on, someone will just start another one. You would think that "beating a dead horse" would get old after awhile.
 

Sal1950

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You mean just have one "flaming" thread. Dream on, someone will just start another one. You would think that "beating a dead horse" would get old after awhile.
Which "dead horse" are you referring to?
The use of science to determine the most accurate gear and to flush out the snake-oil peddlers ???
 
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