The Sigberg Audio SBS.1 speakers are actually large (concept explanation)

[sigbergaudio]

We presented the SBS.1 speaker system at a hifi show this weekened. Based on the questions and comments, I realized most people just didn't understand what it was, despite seeing it and hearing it.

Afterwards I made this illustration for the website:



The fact of the matter is that while it's easy to think "small" and even "cute" when seeing the SBS.1, it is anything but. And when people put on their favorite tracks and turned it up to 100+ dB at the hifi show, the most common reaction was to sit there as question marks, marveling about both the effortless clarity and the bass.

Apparently it is very difficult to stop thinking of this as a pair of small speakers and subwoofers, as this is the only concept we know..

A visual image: The combined cone area of an SBS.1 system with dual Inkognito subs is roughly the same as for instance a pair of JBL HDI 3800(!).. This means you can have a system that is visually small, while in reality there is no compromise either in quality or SPL compared to full size floorstanders. You even get dedicated midbass drivers, which almost no speakers have.

Just wanted to share this, as it was sort of a revelation, would be interesting to get some feedback on how to best explain this (and of course happy to answer questions).

 

[bluefuzz]

would be interesting to get some feedback on how to best explain this

Well, it would help if you labelled the drawing. I take it the big box with 2 x 8" woofers is the sub and the little box the SBS.1 or ... ?

 

[sigbergaudio]

Well, it would help if you labelled the drawing. I take it the big box with 2 x 8" woofers is the sub and the little box the SBS.1 or ... ?

This further proves that this is difficult to understand, so thank you for commenting. The little box is the SBS.1, yes. The idea is that the primary visual footprint of the SBS.1 system is the speaker, so that is what is visualized on the illustration. So in your visual space, you replace a large floorstander with the SBS.1, and thus radically reduce the visual footprint - but you get the same capacity.

The big box represents a large floorstander, and equals the capacity of SBS.1 and one subwoofer (so one channel so to speak).

I guess I need to start over with the illustration.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Well, it would help if you labelled the drawing. I take it the big box with 2 x 8" woofers is the sub and the little box the SBS.1 or ... ?

Did this help?

 

[bluefuzz]

The big box represents a large floorstander, and equals the capacity of SBS.1 and one subwoofer

OK, so the big box isn't part of the system and the subwoofer isn't shown?

I guess I need to start over with the illustration.

Perhaps show it in the form of an 'equation'. Little box + Subwoofer = Big box.

I think you need to show the subwoofer(s) and probably a complete stereo configuration., i.e. 2 x little boxes + n x subwoofers = 2 x big boxes ...

 

[Soniclife]

You even get dedicated midbass drivers, which almost no speakers have.

I've seen you say this a few times, but I'm still in the dark as to what it means, other than they don't do deep bass.

 

[Soniclife]

Did this help?

View attachment 397129

Why no driver sizes on the sbs.1?

I think a neat quick explanation like you are aiming for here is a good idea, as you are doing something different. But that diagram as is would confuse me more, I'd be trying to work out which drivers map to the big speaker, and not getting it.

 

[Purité Audio]

The SBS have a coax mid/treble and the bottom driver is the dedicated mid bass, they are extraordinary speakers coupled of course with a suitable subwoofer.
Four way is imho definitely the way to go.
Keith

 

[sigbergaudio]

I've seen you say this a few times, but I'm still in the dark as to what it means, other than they don't do deep bass.

What is your question specifically? What the difference is between a bass driver and midbass driver is? Or what the point is with a dedicated midbass driver?

What I mean specifically when I say "dedicated midbass driver" (if that was the question), is a driver that is dedicated to the midbass frequency range. For the SBS.1 the lower and upper crossover range for the midbass driver is ~90 and 600hz respectively.

A typical speaker is either

A) 2-way, where a single driver covers everything all the way from the deepest bass it can reproduce all the way up to 2-3000hz where it crosses to the tweeter
B) 3-way, where you got a bass driver crossing over to a midrange driver typically in the 2-300hz area, which then covers the rest up to the tweeter.

 

[dshreter]

I understand your design concept, and it makes loads of sense. I think you are struggling a bit to communicate it simply though.

I would start with the problem statement, or why there is an opportunity to improve modern system design. Most speakers are designed so that they can be used for full range playback. This comes with major compromises though - either the speaker struggles to truly perform well all the way down to low bass frequencies, or the speaker needs to be excessively large.

While subwoofers designed specifically for the low bass frequencies help address this issue, you had the insight that you could improve your main speakers if they were ALWAYS to be used with a subwoofer. By optimizing the design for performance only in mid-bass frequencies and above, you can make a compact speaker that is still capable of handling high SPLs.

 

[Soniclife]

What is your question specifically? What the difference is between a bass driver and midbass driver is? Or what the point is with a dedicated midbass driver?

Both of those questions, but as a listener more of the second one. I don't know if the terminology is more frequent in the pro world but in the hifi world (for me at least) midbass driver isn't a term often used.

 

[EJ3]

Both of those questions, but as a listener more of the second one. I don't know if the terminology is more frequent in the pro world but in the hifi world (for me at least) midbass driver isn't a term often used.

Here you go:
Sub-bass 20 to 60 Hz
Bass 60 to 250 Hz
Low midrange250 to 500 Hz
Midrange 500 Hz to 2 kHz
Upper midrange 2 to 4 kHz
Presence 4 to 6 kHz
Brilliance 6 to 20 kHz
It's a bit subjective but this is probably the most accepted.
So divide BASS region (190)/3 equal 63.33.
Subtract 63.33 from 250 = 186.67 Hz is the top of mid bass.
Add 63.33 to 60 = 123.33 the bottom of mid bass.
One can round a bit an get 125 Hz - 185 Hz as mid bass.
How you round may give you slightly different answers.
Math is good.

 

[Soniclife]

Here you go:
Sub-bass 20 to 60 Hz
Bass 60 to 250 Hz
Low midrange250 to 500 Hz = mid bass
Midrange 500 Hz to 2 kHz
Upper midrange 2 to 4 kHz
Presence 4 to 6 kHz
Brilliance 6 to 20 kHz
It's a bit subjective but this is probably the most accepted.

That kind of refinforces my point, you didn't list midbass!

But my question was focused on what the advantages of a midbass driver brings to the listener, I think I know the answer, but it's an educated guess, and I think stupid questions might help @sigbergaudio clarify his products advantages.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I understand your design concept, and it makes loads of sense. I think you are struggling a bit to communicate it simply though.

I would start with the problem statement, or why there is an opportunity to improve modern system design. Most speakers are designed so that they can be used for full range playback. This comes with major compromises though - either the speaker struggles to truly perform well all the way down to low bass frequencies, or the speaker needs to be excessively large.

While subwoofers designed specifically for the low bass frequencies help address this issue, you had the insight that you could improve your main speakers if they were ALWAYS to be used with a subwoofer. By optimizing the design for performance only in mid-bass frequencies and above, you can make a compact speaker that is still capable of handling high SPLs.

Yes, I am starting to realize that there is a communication problem too. That is of course very valuable insight. Unfortunately it easy to assume comprehension and knowledge in your audience when you already know everything about the subject yourself, but that is of course a fallacy.

That it is somewhat of a novel concept / approach means people aren't used to thinking about these things either, so it doesn't make immediate sense.

One of the issues is that people don't realize A) how much excursion is needed for bass, and B) how little excursion is needed as soon as you get above 1-200hz. This makes it both difficult to understand why subwoofer makes sense, and also makes it difficult to understand how on earth a small speaker with relatively small drivers can play very loud.

I will give this some thought and try to figure out how to communicate it better. Thank you to everyone who shares feedback - whether you've understood what this is all about or not.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Both of those questions, but as a listener more of the second one. I don't know if the terminology is more frequent in the pro world but in the hifi world (for me at least) midbass driver isn't a term often used.

Since hardly any hifi speakers have a midbass driver, it is a good and accurate observation that this is a term not often thrown around. If we look at the definitions in REW, I would say that the upper half of what is defined as "bass", and all of "lower mid" is what I would define as midbass. So ~100-500hz. I am sure you can find as many defintions as you can find charts of this.

We are talking about an area that contains a lot of the punch and pressure that provides the tactile feelings of transients and dynamic swings in the music, and it is a frequency range where hifi subwoofer/bass drivers don't necessarily do a great job. This is due in part to the heavy cones and large surrounds required for deep bass causing the sensitivity / efficiency to suffer. These two frequency ranges requires different properties of the drivers. So covering both with the same driver will result in a compromise.

Looking at the bass and midbass drivers in our subwoofers vs speakers might be somewhat enlightening. Both these drivers are 12". Note both the weight difference of the moving mass and also a whopping 7dB difference in sensitivity. And this is a subwoofer driver that is relatively efficient. 86 or even 83dB is not that uncommon especially in even smaller subwoofer drivers.

Subwoofer driver (moving mass: 135g, resonance frequency 17hz, sensitivity 89dB) :

Midbass driver (moving mass: 60g, resonance frequency 47hz, sensitivity 96dB):

A related question is what the difference is between the SBS.1 and just high passing a regular 2-way speaker. And the answer to that is twofold.

A) The SBS.1 actually has TWO drivers contributing in the midbass range, as both drivers go all the way down to 90hz. So it has significantly more cone area in midbass (upper bass / lower midrange) area than most 2-ways.

B) And even more importantly; A typical 2-way (or even 3-way) bass driver has quite low efficiency, often down into the mid 80s. This means even though you high pass the speaker, it will be limited by the system efficiency, and simply won't be capable of playing much louder even though it no longer is forced to play bass. It will play cleaner, but not necessarily louder. You can push tons of watts into it, but then you will run into thermal issues. While the SBS.1 on the other hand has twin 5.5" drivers with high sensitivity. So the system efficiency (and thus the capability to reproduce high SPLs without catching fire) is much higher to begin with.


So while a traditional loudspeaker will be limited in the midbass by efficiency and thermal issues, the SBS.1 will only be limited by excursion, which is not much of a problem as soon as you go above 100hz.

 

[Soniclife]

Since hardly any hifi speakers have a midbass driver, it is a good and accurate observation that this is a term not often thrown around. If we look at the definitions in REW, I would say that the upper half of what is defined as "bass", and all of "lower mid" is what I would define as midbass. So ~100-500hz. I am sure you can find as many defintions as you can find charts of this.

View attachment 397142


We are talking about an area that contains a lot of the punch and pressure that provides the tactile feelings of transients and dynamic swings in the music, and it is a frequency range where hifi subwoofer/bass drivers don't necessarily do a great job. This is due in part to the heavy cones and large surrounds required for deep bass causing the sensitivity / efficiency to suffer. These two frequency ranges requires different properties of the drivers. So covering both with the same driver will result in a compromise.

Looking at the bass and midbass drivers in our subwoofers vs speakers might be somewhat enlightening. Both these drivers are 12". Note both the weight difference of the moving mass and also a whopping 7dB difference in sensitivity. And this is a subwoofer driver that is relatively efficient. 86 or even 83dB is not that uncommon especially in even smaller subwoofer drivers.

Subwoofer driver (moving mass: 135g, resonance frequency 17hz, sensitivity 89dB) :
View attachment 397146

Midbass driver (moving mass: 60g, resonance frequency 47hz, sensitivity 96dB):
View attachment 397144





A related question is what the difference is between the SBS.1 and just high passing a regular 2-way speaker. And the answer to that is twofold.

A) The SBS.1 actually has TWO drivers contributing in the midbass range, as both drivers go all the way down to 90hz. So it has significantly more cone area in midbass (upper bass / lower midrange) area than most 2-ways.

B) And even more importantly; A typical 2-way (or even 3-way) bass driver has quite low efficiency, often down into the mid 80s. This means even though you high pass the speaker, it will be limited by the system efficiency, and simply won't be capable of playing much louder even though it no longer is forced to play bass. It will play cleaner, but not necessarily louder. You can push tons of watts into it, but then you will run into thermal issues. While the SBS.1 on the other hand has twin 5.5" drivers with high sensitivity. So the system efficiency (and thus the capability to reproduce high SPLs without catching fire) is much higher to begin with.


So while a traditional loudspeaker will be limited in the midbass by efficiency and thermal issues, the SBS.1 will only be limited by excursion, which is not much of a problem as soon as you go above 100hz.

That's what I thought you were saying in your design threads, but it wasn't layed out this clearly.

It makes me think your diagrams should focus more on how much capacity your speaker has, than how small it is, as it's very hard to guesstimate output.

 

[sigbergaudio]

That's what I thought you were saying in your design threads, but it wasn't layed out this clearly.

It makes me think your diagrams should focus more on how much capacity your speaker has, than how small it is, as it's very hard to guesstimate output.

That makes sense. Back to the drawing board!