FlyingFreak
Active Member
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2022
- Messages
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Hello dear community of audio enthusiasts,
After reading so much things about snake oil dongle and how people respond to each others on both side of the discussion, I thought it might be useful to add a psychology thread.
First thought to start it in the audio section then got shy, so here it is, in the fun section.
Disclaimers:
1. First time trying to share those things to others. I am no teachers and English isnt my first language. I welcome help, correction and other constructive inputs!
2. THIS IS NOT AN OTHER AUDIO THREAD. This thread is about how we speak about audio and what might drive us to say and think what we think about it. Please practice self control and refrain impulses to speak audio.
3. The motivation for this thread is the belief that if people were feeling more supported and emotionally regulated, we wouldn't have all those discussions and snake oil dealers no clients and I hope this thread might support us getting there.
Here is how I see the discussion between 'objectivists' and 'subjectivists':
1. How to test any audio component (discussion on what measurements are and aren't, what an individual in their living rooms can and can't do.)
2. Psycho acoustics (From the science of earrings to argument of authority that sounds all a little like this 'my ears aren't yours', 'my taste cant be reduced by numbers')
3. Expressing outrage, outcry, disbelief, -more rarely- hurts.
And finally, when pushed beyond their -emotional and argumentative- limits:
4. You (the other side) are objectively insane and other flowery arguments that are all poor disguise of kindergarten name calling, and bombing of torsos.
I think it is notable that most 'subjectivists' and 'objectivists', if pushed, agrees that it has nothing to do with audio anything.
Imagining I am properly addressing the issue, here is what I d like to start to develop in this thread:
1. Learn the basics of human communication (how and why we communicate and how it affects us),
2. believe systems (how they form, reinforced themselves and relaxes AND learn about cult) and
3. how to protect oneself from getting co-opted in someone else's bs (build personal resilience and sense of agency).
A lot of discussion tends to be personal (I have the dacs in my room rn, dont you go tell me what I do or don't hear you filthy number addict animal). This is the first mistake when going into those swamp of discussion. It is mostly not personal yet it feels personal. In my example, if I have a couple of dac and tell you how sweet the low medium is with one and how harsh the trebles is with the others and you tell me I am making that up I will probably take it as an attack to my sense of self. You might do it knowingly cause you are having a bad day or you like putting things on fire for giggles or unknowingly thinking you are speaking about facts. Point is, you are challenging my belief system at such a basic level (what I can and cant perceive) and generally doing so without caring about me so I react protecting my thing. We are not anymore speaking about the same thing. You are hurt by me propagating audio bs and I am hurt by you attacking my sense of self.
So that is the microcosm of what is happening. It is happening in a bigger world. Hence people calling ASR a cult based mumbo jumbo forum. This points to how groups works. It is true to say a group tend to share believes and sensitivities. The fun part is that if the group forms around something unbelievable the group cohesion will be stronger and the most unbelievable it is the strongest the cohesion. Think about the wildest cult in history. Real strong cohesion, totally nuts shared belief.
Moreover, as I pointed out on another thread, cult followers tend to be the first to call other people cult followers when they are threatened. If you think about it, it is a great strategy. It is suddenly on you to bear the burden of proof to someone who says the Earth is flat, socialist child molester billionaires are poisoning the waters etc. Good luck with that! The question is a bait and if you try to answer, you are trapped. Saying differently, no matter how aware or not that they are saying nonsense, the part of them baiting you isnt looking to learn but to make you as ridicule as they perceive you are trying to make them feel. They want you to feel bad. Believing that proof, verifiable information, etc. will help them seeing reason is you becoming unreasonable.
Another potentially relevant phenomenon is known as the 'Dunning-Kruger effect'. This effect occurs when a person's lack of knowledge and skills in a certain area cause them to overestimate their own competence. By contrast, this effect also causes those who excel in a given area to think the task is simple for everyone, and underestimate their relative abilities as well. This seems to me speaking to most of the subjective reviewer. They have little to no idea what a dac is and go on listening to them and describing them with such confidence we neurotic intellectuals start second guessing ourselves. (As anything psychological, the existence of this effect isnt universally recognized nor accepted. Nothing in this field is true and measurable in the way a length or a voltage is.)
I haven't mentioned yet a couple of elephant in the room: pride (and reactionary behaviors to perceiving attack to ego), denial (and reason for it) and narcissism (and attachment to control, lie and gaslight). Those are usually called out so I imagine we all know it. If that is interesting I can go deeper in any of those.
Feel free to add to the list. I am new here, this is just what I have noticed so far from my meaning making lens. I would love to have it all together written somewhere.
I hope this is interesting enough for y'all! Lemme know if anything is of particular interest so you and I know what might be worth developing!
Interesting articles (I will update this):
www.nytimes.com
www.psychologytoday.com
After reading so much things about snake oil dongle and how people respond to each others on both side of the discussion, I thought it might be useful to add a psychology thread.
First thought to start it in the audio section then got shy, so here it is, in the fun section.
Disclaimers:
1. First time trying to share those things to others. I am no teachers and English isnt my first language. I welcome help, correction and other constructive inputs!
2. THIS IS NOT AN OTHER AUDIO THREAD. This thread is about how we speak about audio and what might drive us to say and think what we think about it. Please practice self control and refrain impulses to speak audio.
3. The motivation for this thread is the belief that if people were feeling more supported and emotionally regulated, we wouldn't have all those discussions and snake oil dealers no clients and I hope this thread might support us getting there.
Here is how I see the discussion between 'objectivists' and 'subjectivists':
1. How to test any audio component (discussion on what measurements are and aren't, what an individual in their living rooms can and can't do.)
2. Psycho acoustics (From the science of earrings to argument of authority that sounds all a little like this 'my ears aren't yours', 'my taste cant be reduced by numbers')
3. Expressing outrage, outcry, disbelief, -more rarely- hurts.
And finally, when pushed beyond their -emotional and argumentative- limits:
4. You (the other side) are objectively insane and other flowery arguments that are all poor disguise of kindergarten name calling, and bombing of torsos.
I think it is notable that most 'subjectivists' and 'objectivists', if pushed, agrees that it has nothing to do with audio anything.
Imagining I am properly addressing the issue, here is what I d like to start to develop in this thread:
1. Learn the basics of human communication (how and why we communicate and how it affects us),
2. believe systems (how they form, reinforced themselves and relaxes AND learn about cult) and
3. how to protect oneself from getting co-opted in someone else's bs (build personal resilience and sense of agency).
A lot of discussion tends to be personal (I have the dacs in my room rn, dont you go tell me what I do or don't hear you filthy number addict animal). This is the first mistake when going into those swamp of discussion. It is mostly not personal yet it feels personal. In my example, if I have a couple of dac and tell you how sweet the low medium is with one and how harsh the trebles is with the others and you tell me I am making that up I will probably take it as an attack to my sense of self. You might do it knowingly cause you are having a bad day or you like putting things on fire for giggles or unknowingly thinking you are speaking about facts. Point is, you are challenging my belief system at such a basic level (what I can and cant perceive) and generally doing so without caring about me so I react protecting my thing. We are not anymore speaking about the same thing. You are hurt by me propagating audio bs and I am hurt by you attacking my sense of self.
So that is the microcosm of what is happening. It is happening in a bigger world. Hence people calling ASR a cult based mumbo jumbo forum. This points to how groups works. It is true to say a group tend to share believes and sensitivities. The fun part is that if the group forms around something unbelievable the group cohesion will be stronger and the most unbelievable it is the strongest the cohesion. Think about the wildest cult in history. Real strong cohesion, totally nuts shared belief.
Moreover, as I pointed out on another thread, cult followers tend to be the first to call other people cult followers when they are threatened. If you think about it, it is a great strategy. It is suddenly on you to bear the burden of proof to someone who says the Earth is flat, socialist child molester billionaires are poisoning the waters etc. Good luck with that! The question is a bait and if you try to answer, you are trapped. Saying differently, no matter how aware or not that they are saying nonsense, the part of them baiting you isnt looking to learn but to make you as ridicule as they perceive you are trying to make them feel. They want you to feel bad. Believing that proof, verifiable information, etc. will help them seeing reason is you becoming unreasonable.
Another potentially relevant phenomenon is known as the 'Dunning-Kruger effect'. This effect occurs when a person's lack of knowledge and skills in a certain area cause them to overestimate their own competence. By contrast, this effect also causes those who excel in a given area to think the task is simple for everyone, and underestimate their relative abilities as well. This seems to me speaking to most of the subjective reviewer. They have little to no idea what a dac is and go on listening to them and describing them with such confidence we neurotic intellectuals start second guessing ourselves. (As anything psychological, the existence of this effect isnt universally recognized nor accepted. Nothing in this field is true and measurable in the way a length or a voltage is.)
I haven't mentioned yet a couple of elephant in the room: pride (and reactionary behaviors to perceiving attack to ego), denial (and reason for it) and narcissism (and attachment to control, lie and gaslight). Those are usually called out so I imagine we all know it. If that is interesting I can go deeper in any of those.
Feel free to add to the list. I am new here, this is just what I have noticed so far from my meaning making lens. I would love to have it all together written somewhere.
I hope this is interesting enough for y'all! Lemme know if anything is of particular interest so you and I know what might be worth developing!
Interesting articles (I will update this):

How to Change Minds? A Study Makes the Case for Talking It Out. (Published 2022)
Researchers found that meaty conversations among several people can align beliefs and brain patterns — so long as the group is free of blowhards.

Understanding Cults: The Basics
To help others, it is important to understand mind control and undue influence.
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