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The psychology of it all.

egellings

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yeah...and the DBT will prove those choices are based on nothing real and therefore should not be used as any sort of recommendation of one thing over another. It's not nearly as complicated as people make it out to be. If the test comes out 50/50 and the subject then says "but still I prefer this one" we can shrug and say "people be crazy" and move along.
If the DBT comes out as inconclusive, then the decision to pick on piece over the other will simply come down to other equipment attributes, such as appearance or functionality.
 

Sgt. Ear Ache

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If the DBT comes out as inconclusive, then the decision to pick on piece over the other will simply come down to other equipment attributes, such as appearance or functionality.

Well, even if it's conclusive it might come down to other things. All we're focused on here is whether or not given things make a real difference in terms of sound quality. Everything beyond that is a separate issue.

I should clarify - my "people be crazy" shot was aimed at those who might take a test to determine if they can identify differences between for instance 2 dacs, fail the test (not be able to identify any differences in sound) and then after the test is done say "I still think Dac #1 sounds the best." There's lots of other factors that enter the equation in choosing gear some of which might even make one decide to buy the item that measures or even sounds worse...
 
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pseudoid

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I don't like limes because they are too bitter to my palette.
Do you know what I do? I just don't eat them!:confused:
...This problem is more prevalent here than any other audio forum on the internet...
...The lack of scientific curiosity...
...This place is largely an echo-chamber where...
...is definitely problematic..
If you have such negative feelings about ASR, you may wish to take similar actions.
No need to further insult the members << don't you think?
 

312elements

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I don't like limes because they are too bitter to my palette.
Do you know what I do? I just don't eat them!:confused:

If you have such negative feelings about ASR, you may wish to take similar actions.
No need to further insult the members << don't you think?
I come here regularly because I think there is value in what Amir is doing. I don't post often because I find the members to be the problem. Case in point, you just quoted a month old post out of context. You added zero value to conversation.
 

Sokel

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Apart from ABX and actual measurements I have a test that never fails,it's called "round headache",you know,the one that is like putting your head a very tight hat for some time.
Something,in some gear,is causing it to me,it only takes an hour of two listening to stuff to happen.
And it's so consistent that after all this years I even know how to recognize it from measurements (speakers mostly but not only).

For the rest,apart from the fun of measurements only two rules: audible or not to ME and safe and durable (it has to look this way too,in and out).
Anything else (looks,SINAD way up,trends,etc) is just for pampering my ego and curiosity.
 

pseudoid

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I come here regularly because I think there is value in what Amir is doing. I don't post often because I find the members to be the problem. Case in point, you just quoted a month old post out of context. You added zero value to conversation.
:eek:
I think your post is a great example of my point.
:facepalm:
 

UltraPro

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The usual problems related to audio and perhaps some other forums are people who are too attached to their belongings and those who feel stupid when purchasing something worthless because some salesman reassured them, but cannot admit this. What brings all people on this forum together, is the enjoyment of music or any other audio related stuff, so we do find worthwhile tuning the audio quality to the very best. Me though, I don't have much money to spend on this equipment, so I try to tone down some of the hype and misconceptions, because what I do not like, is luring people to buy unnecessary things, while this might not be a big issue for the big earners. It is always nice to read posts of wealthy people who tell about their equipment honestly and do not fear of being ridiculed, if they admit they have wasted money big time, but some people think they are themselves valued by what they own and hate to admit, that they have wasted money when they don't hear any difference in audio quality or do not consider the purchasement an actual improvement. They tend to switch to hype mode and praise the products they have and challenging those views almost always results in insults, because they want to simply be happy thinking their stuff is worth something, the best there is, that they are not fools and their limited time on this planet is well spent, enjoying the most high quality audio there is. This is at least what I imagine is going on regarding why people insult in these discussion and ridicule others, but of course, the reason might be way more simple, which is money: People can own stock of various companies which can make them defend their investments by defending the products of those companies, if they happen to be critiqued, or perhaps they guard their resale value - who really knows the mind of the mocker?

Internet is occasionally a nasty place due to these outbursts of emotions of people who just cannot handle the life as well as some others, and I mean in emotional sense. Money is often somehow connected to many issues in the world, the lust for it is the base problem of the world. Music though, when you are in the mood, you likely will listen to it no matter the equipment. In fact, I most often listen to music via my smartphone's speakers simply because the device is almost always with me so it is easy to blast music through it (in private). We likely all here enjoy music first and foremost, no matter the equipment, so I dare to claim that if we wouldn't have the fancy devices we have and couldn't obtain such for some imaginary reason, we would still listen to music in some cheaper manner. This is important to remember, that even if you are able to own great commodities, we should remember what really matters, and concerning audio, it is that music exists and you are able to listen to it somehow (if you are not deaf). I appreciate hifi-audio, but how much easier life would be if one wouldn't think about how things could, or rather should, be improved to fully enjoy something. Advancements in tech are cool, but who even has the time to explore everything? Just relax and blast some beats and if one day you have the spare cash, spend it perhaps on audio product that makes sense to you, but overall these devices are not important by any stretch of imagination.

Be thankful if you can buy/use fine audio equipment, but don't fool yourself. Do not hype stuff to make people waste their money, and respond honestly if anyone asks about these things, without fear of ridicule. "Scoffer is above it all", which means once a person in this particular mindset, he is above all ethic and reason, so arguing is pointless and likely causes more harm than good.
I enjoyed the starting post because I found it genuinely humorous, but concerning the content, I guess it is pretty much impossible to erase bad manners and foolishness from the internet, or anywhere. You can only help yourself and help some others, but we cannot change those who are not willing to appreciate things, but rather feel entitled and a sense of pride for owning something fancy - they have the problem, not you, so just enjoy what you have. It is sad when people exaggerate and mislead people, but if there is any hope, it means when you spell the truth here on this forum or elsewhere, people do recognise it.

Thanks for reading!

EDIT. grammar
 
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ahofer

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It's equally likely that technology is holding back our ability to measure something as it is that people are hearing things or that their minds are fooling them.

The weight of blind testing that has been done, and the replication of basic audio science makes the latter vastly more likely. I’m shocked anyone could call them “equally likely”.
 

Curvature

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Not really - people will still hear what they want to hear, and when things are equal they *still* establish a preference.

I tested the Benchmark AHB2 and the NAD M22 side by side, volume matched. I didn't hear a difference until I had to convince myself I *had* to make a choice since I could not keep both. And so I decided to hear a difference, and picked one because it seems to sound more "fun". :)

I know the counter argument will be that double blind testing will show the supposed preference is pretty much 50-50 statistically... but people still make "excuses" to justify their choice.
Statistically, the breakdown in that case won't be 50/50. It will be random, which, given enough iterations, will settle into a 50/50 distribution. Just like flipping a coin. But that doesn't change that the outcome is still random every single flip.

People often imagine or arbitrarily declare preferences where they have none.
 

312elements

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When people expect not to hear a difference between multiple devices that bias will nullify blind tests.
 

fpitas

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NTK

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When people expect not to hear a difference between multiple devices that bias will nullify blind tests.
Good experimental design will include tests to test the discriminating ability of the testers, such as deliberately introducing known audible differences to see if the testers are paying attention.
 

fpitas

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pseudoid

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I've mistaken a broken transistor radio for my system. Boy, was I surprised! :D
I don't get it.
Do you mean that you've mistook your system for a broken radio?
That don't make sense either!
When people expect not to hear a difference between multiple devices that bias will nullify blind tests.
Will that argument also hold true for people expecting to hear a difference.... nullifying tests?
 

fpitas

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I don't get it.
Do you mean that you've mistook your system for a broken radio?
That don't make sense either!
Sometimes, mockery is just mockery.
 

312elements

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I don't get it.
Do you mean that you've mistook your system for a broken radio?
That don't make sense either!

Will that argument also hold true for people expecting to hear a difference.... nullifying tests?
100%
 

pseudoid

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When people expect not to hear a difference between multiple devices that bias will nullify blind tests.
Will that argument also hold true for people expecting to hear a difference.... nullifying tests?
You added zero value to conversation.
This dialog makes the top statement a negative value.
I've never been a fan of tests, especially those that are ABX/T/? and/or blind.
I also do not follow the results of such testing; even if under controlled environment w/golden-ears, who can keep their 'biases' in check!:facepalm:

Not that it will force me to replace any of my current A/V hardware... but I must ask:
Has there ever been an ASR poll attempting to get a definitive consensus about member reliance on such testing (blind/AB...)?
 
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