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The price of popularity - forum SINAD

tonycollinet

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For example, can you tell me, using measurements alone, which is the best speaker out of the three I mentioned earlier: JBL M2, Genelec 8361 or Revel F228Be. Your quote above suggests a ranking system is possible, and therefore the best could be deduced, from measurements alone.
No, it doesn't. That is a specific example of misunderstanding what is being said - or a deliberate attempt at strawmanning. I've said that science and evidence are required here to back up what is being said. At no point does that mean that science can determine (especially) personal preferences - where differences in behaviour of equipment actually exist - as they do between speakers, and the interaction of those speakers in rooms.

What the science *does* say about speaker measurments (I'm treading lightly here, because I am far from familiar with that science myself) is that a preference score can be given based on measurements.

However, as you have correctly pointed out that is a score based on a strong majority preference, not that every single individual will share that preference. And I've not seen anyone credibly saying anything different.
 

pkane

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It’s an interesting idea. I would like it much better if you could sort by likes rather than it being a mandate.
Ordering by likes results in more of the hive mind thinking and crowd-sourced knowledge that can often be quite wrong. It's a poor substitute for learning for yourself and for critical thinking. The larger the hive, the more the real knowledge and expertise are drowned out and replaced by a very vocal group-think. I often learn a lot more from a few unsupported dissenting opinions than from thousands of mindless "I like" confirmations. So, I'd say, keep it as it is.
 

Fahzz

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Maybe set up a forum section dedicated to cables and power cords, and restrict all discussions on those subjects to said section? That way you avoid or partake in the vitriol on a voluntary basis.
 

Frgirard

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No, it doesn't. That is a specific example of misunderstanding what is being said - or a deliberate attempt at strawmanning. I've said that science and evidence are required here to back up what is being said. At no point does that mean that science can determine (especially) personal preferences - where differences in behaviour of equipment actually exist - as they do between speakers, and the interaction of those speakers in rooms.

What the science *does* say about speaker measurments (I'm treading lightly here, because I am far from familiar with that science myself) is that a preference score can be given based on measurements.

However, as you have correctly pointed out that is a score based on a strong majority preference, not that every single individual will share that preference. And I've not seen anyone credibly saying anything different.
use the word science here is like said the cable have a sound.

this is the big problem on this forum : the epistemological deception.
 

Digby

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No, it doesn't. That is a specific example of misunderstanding what is being said - or a deliberate attempt at strawmanning.
Maybe, who knows, we are going in circles. Can you tell me how I could have made my first post any clearer? I said certain members have a vision of a 'one true way', then you just suggested the 'one true way' being that of science/evidence.

Please reread my first post. The forum doesn't have a singular view at all, it is a collection of many different views, some held by more people than others. ASR forums and ASR itself are two different things. There are thousands of members here, there is no 'one true way' according to them all. How could there be?

I'm sorry, but I think the misunderstanding is yours and started with your first reply, afterwards we just end up talking at cross purposes.

Perhaps this shows the difficulty of communicating complex ideas on forums, even between native English speakers. Can you imagine how much energy is wasted in misunderstanding when translating English into another language and back again?

@thewas can you explain in more detail the point of the thread, give some examples, or else we might just chase our tails trying to guess (and needlessly argue) about what you mean.
 
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tonycollinet

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Maybe, who knows, we are going in circles. Can you tell me how I could have made my first post any clearer? I said certain members have a vision of a 'one true way', then you just suggested the 'one true way' being that of science/evidence.

Please reread my first post. The forum doesn't have a singular view at all, it is a collection of many different views, some held by more people than others. ASR forums and ASR itself are two different things. There are thousands of members here, there is no 'one true way' according to them all. How could there be?

I'm sorry, but I think the misunderstanding is yours and started with your first reply, afterwards we just end up talking at cross purposes.

Perhaps this shows the difficulty of communicating complex ideas on forums, even between native English speakers. Can you imagine how much energy is wasted in misunderstanding when translating English into another language and back again?

@thewas can you explain in more detail the point of the thread, give some examples, or else we might just chase our tails trying to guess (and needlessly argue) about what you mean.
As you say - circles. I don't intend to perpetuate them further.
 

Peluvius

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I had noticed this in the past in other audio related forums too and I see it lately happening in ASR. Some initially small forums with high quality of content due to a rather small and very dedicated member group get due to their quality and other reasons more and more popular which is of course something positive as this results more and more people subscribing and increasing their knowledge and understanding in those topics. Unfortunately such popularity attracts in parallel though disproportionately more members who combine very limited interest to learning with a high self esteem and output flow rate. Members with high knowledge level initially try to counteract on those posts but get tired in the long run and reduce their output resulting an decreasing "forum signal to noise and distortion" ratio. I used to enjoy some high quality forums and learn a lot from them but when this happening I feel I am just wasting time reading the same discussions over and over again which can be shortly described with pigeon chess. I know this will possibly sound elitist to some and I hope I could provide some solution so people (I had talked in the past with some members which felt the same when they left their previous forums and joined also ASR) don't need to search for the "next ASR" all the time, except some unpopular ideas like limiting number daily posts per member so they might consider well what they write although damage can be done of course with few posts. This is also no criticism to the moderation which in my long experience with internet forums is here doing one of the best jobs I have experienced but in the end has also limited options and resources. Would like to hear your opinions and experiences about it.

I have only been a member since last year and I can surely see an increased "signal to noise" ratio in terms of fact based content v opinion based content. I am not a scientists and surely contribute to the "noise" more than the signal. It would be a shame if those more knowledgeable members/scientists and industry insiders fell away however I am hoping Amir's excellent reviews and general interest in lifting the industry will prevail. I think this type of forum has a real shot at making change for the better in terms of improving fact based knowledge and holding manufacturers to account.
 

Blumlein 88

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Yep.

My saying - until I realize that worthy members would get lots of dislikes from all those fools, probably more dislikes than the fools would get.
Unless I'm thinking of another forum, we had dislikes for a time. You had people who seemed to sign up and go find someone who posted something they disagree with and put "dislike" on everything they posted. I seem to remember at one time there were three people who apparently were getting notified of any of my posts. Any thing I posted picked up 3 dislikes sometimes in less than a minute.

Now I don't expect everyone has to agree, and a reasonable dislike would be fine. That is a different thing than just having a dislike campaign on a particular user. On forums with dislikes I've never even considered such a thing.
 

restorer-john

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Sadly, the base-level noise floor at ASR has risen exponentially of late. To such an extent, I often type a carefully structured and technical reply to help someone, only to just delete the draft and go do something else. Life is too short and I don't feel like unnecessary explanations, arguments and potential disagreements.
 

Peluvius

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Yep.

My saying - until I realize that worthy members would get lots of dislikes from all those fools, probably more dislikes than the fools would get.

Maybe, but i suspect not. I sought out and found here a source of great, fact-based information about my hobby. I have stayed because I enjoy talking about audio reproduction related stuff and have not come across too many fools so far, and those that I have come across tend to get shouted down and off they go. I would say that is the key (as nicely covered in that article referenced earlier), fools get called out. As long as that keeps happening I think (and hope) there is something sustainable here.
 

Peluvius

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Sadly, the base-level noise floor at ASR has risen exponentially of late. To such an extent, I often type a carefully structured and technical reply to help someone, only to just delete the draft and go do something else. Life is too short and I don't feel like unnecessary explanations, arguments and potential disagreements.

That is a shame to hear John, as someone who clearly is an expert your view suggests that the tourists are killing the attraction....
 

TimF

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I suppose if we all try harder we can increase the proportion of the good over the bad. We could also restrict membership to Amir alone. It seems in everything social that the more is not always the merrier, but it usually results in more messiness. A group restricted to persons meeting strict criteria, and who are vetted, might reduce the spread of whatever it is that annoys. Purity (of enquiry and social discourse) despoiled is, I guess, a form of entropy. Seriously though, science is a mode, a method, a disposition and it is less often achieved than attempted. It is so very hard for humans to adopt and maintain a scientific mode of enquiry and analysis. It doesn't come natural to us. Indeed.
 
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Chrispy

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I don't, but I do believe some things are taken as read to easily. I don't (and didn't) say it is the dogma of ASR, more so that there is a certain orthodoxy of thinking here (on these forums), as there are different orthodoxies elsewhere.



This is not quite correct or you have not stated what you mean completely clearly. Which is objectively better, a narrow directivity speaker or a wide directivity one? Are horns objectively better than dome tweeters. There are plenty of questions that do not have a scientific, binary yes/no answer.

There are situations where subjectivity may be the only judge and science has little to say on the matter.

For example, can you tell me, using measurements alone, which is the best speaker out of the three I mentioned earlier: JBL M2, Genelec 8361 or Revel F228Be. Your quote above suggests a ranking system is possible, and therefore the best could be deduced, from measurements alone.
Why would this forum be particularly interested in purely subjective conclusions like speaker preference (i.e. outside of what measurements can point to)? Your taste in speakers could well not be mine.....like food or drink....
 
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