The pain of being a member of ASR

[Mean & Green]

I empathize. Glad you are still around.

Speaking of the pain of being an ASR member: I've often been taken as some sort of subjectivist-in-sheep's clothing on this site, a sort of Trojan horse or apologist for what some see as the the enemy of audio science. Sometimes I bring this on myself. Sometimes no matter how conciliatory and nuanced I try to be, some folks have hard lines in the sand that can't be crossed, so it can be a bit of a pile-on. And despite that I consider myself an "objectivist" in line with the ethos of this site, I wonder if I'm too awkward a fit here and consider leaving. I mean, I'm not here to piss people off and if that's all that is happening I wouldn't want to participate. But, I usually get enough signals of support that I usually just take a break for a while, which I think is good advice. So...here's my sign of support for you. Stick around

I see where you’re coming from. It seems difficult to strike a balance between conversations based upon scientific fact yet also include subjective tastes here at ASR. We all seek pleasure from slightly different things in audio, there are definitely others on a similar wavelength to yourself.

It does seem that the majority here are like the polar opposite of those on subjective forums but can be equally as pig headed. There has to be some middle ground IMO. That’s not to suggest that one believes in fantasy products or the emperors new clothes, just to because you want to include some subjective reasons or reasons you consider cool for liking a particular thing. Some people here seem to think that taking some middle ground makes you the equivalent of a snake oil believer who listens to the differences in mains cables.

 

[DanielT]

Now back to the person with the silver USB cable. If it were me, I'd first want to know if the person is curious about how cables work and open to leaning about them. In that case I wouldn't start with ridicule. Alternatively, someone who expresses from the outset a stubborn pride and defiance is different. I'd likely avoid contact with them. But let's take each of these two in turn and ask you: What do you expect ridicule to accomplish? In other words, what motivates your ridicule?

You know one needs experience, super gold ears and super duper hifi equipment to (imagine) hearing this. Ad revenue is also likely to help:

 

[Multicore]

You know one needs experience, super gold ears and super duper hifi equipment to (imagine) hearing this. Ad revenue is also likely to help:

Sure. I agree. ASR agrees. So why are we sill talking about that here? I don't understand. Is it group therapy for people who suffered poor behavior elsewhere?

 

[DanielT]

Sure. I agree. ASR agrees. So why are we sill talking about that here? I don't understand. Is it group therapy for people who suffered poor behavior elsewhere?

It's so stupid it's fun. Relaxed sound makes it an easy listen....sound could be a little cleaner.

A digital cable.

 

[Timcognito]

My pain of being a member of ASR​

Recently, I've been reflecting on my engagement here on the forum. The discussions in some threads, marked by contentious debates and a focus on proving oneself right, have led me to reconsider my active participation. All too often the arguments are presented in an aggressive and personally hurtful manner.

I value the essence of the audiophile community and the shared joy and passion for the hobby. However, the current atmosphere in ASR has made me question where the true benefit and enjoyment lies. I am also considering whether I can continue to make a constructive contribution to the discussions.

Whenever the turn of the year approaches, I always take the opportunity to make certain decisions. On New Year's Day 2023, for example, I unsubscribed from the Audio Analogue Association forum, where I had been a member for many, many years.

Hey you are one of the few that does it all, attends real music venues, belongs to audio society, builds hand crafted components, shares your soul and love music and the hobby with candor, dignity and respect. Don't let the the idiots win. Hold your ground and back away from stupidly and rudeness by not not responding. Your only problem is you too serious when inane and vitriolic posters throw rocks and repeat the same thing over and over. Don't Leave. Stay and wait a few minutes before responding to fanatic and angry people or not at all.

 

[bodhi]

Some people here seem to think that taking some middle ground makes you the equivalent of a snake oil believer who listens to the differences in mains cables.

No, some people think there is no middle ground when talking about claimed "night and day"-differences which are impossible according to available facts. Differences, which the proponents cannot even prove really exists outside their head, even when there is pretty straightforward way to do so. Differences, for which we have obvious and well known explanation in sighted bias.

You can consider giving in just being civil and nice, or giving up on the main reason, the fact based approach, that is the baseline here. I think many, including me, go with the latter. Not that it would matter at all either way, first world problem if there ever was one.

 

[Mean & Green]

No, some people think there is no middle ground when talking about claimed "night and day"-differences which are impossible according to available facts. Differences, which the proponents cannot even prove really exists outside their head, even when there is pretty straightforward way to do so. Differences, for which we have obvious and well known explanation in sighted bias.

You can consider giving in just being civil and nice, or giving up on the main reason, the fact based approach, that is the baseline here. I think many, including me, go with the latter. Not that it would matter at all either way, first world problem if there ever was one.

You are taking what I’ve said out of context and interpreting it as something else.

Imaginary night and day differences based on nonsense is not the kind of middle ground I’m talking about. Your post is just a prime example of what my prior post was getting at. Why do the mere words ‘subjective preference‘ provoke such strong reactions?

No one is arguing with any scientific data, engineering or what is and isn’t real.

Taking the vinyl renaissance thread as an example. The members who enjoy spinning the odd record couldn’t say that they enjoy vinyl without the snide comments from the SOTA perfectionists poo pooing it and lumping us in the Michael Fremer category of audiophile. There should be more middle ground without the extreme categorisations.

 

[Killingbeans]

I know someone who is talked to by certain voices that I believe endogenous but she experience as exogenous. I think the probability that I'm wrong and she's right is negligible. Even if I got a panel of highly-credentialed shrinks to agree with me I would still lack a good reason to ridicule her for her belief. Probabilities of who's right and who's wrong don't come into it for me. First I need to decide what I want to accomplish, for whom (her, myself, others) and then, given the specifics of the case, maybe I can think of how to do it.

The adult who believes in Santa Claus is similar. I'm curious what's going on. That p=0 doesn't give me a reason to ridicule. What would I accomplish? It might be harmful.

Now back to the person with the silver USB cable. If it were me, I'd first want to know if the person is curious about how cables work and open to leaning about them. In that case I wouldn't start with ridicule. Alternatively, someone who expresses from the outset a stubborn pride and defiance is different. I'd likely avoid contact with them. But let's take each of these two in turn and ask you: What do you expect ridicule to accomplish? In other words, what motivates your ridicule?

I think we have been agreeing quite a bit all along.

I'm perfectly aware that some people automatically blow a fuse if you even hint to a fallibility of their claims. And in those cases, redicule will likely result in nothing but a mud fight.

As long as I can help it, I will never use redicule as a preliminary retort, and I try my best to aim it at the claim itself and not the person presenting it. Although, some (if not most) people have great difficulty making that distinction. I usually only reach the point of redicule when dealing with the "stubborn pride" groupe here on the forum, and I have no illusion of breaking through the pride. I only hope other readers, who are undecided, will find my arguments useful.

Besides, my personal idea of "redicule" is mostly to cook up an analogy that underlines the absurdity of the claim in question.

Redicule in the form of playground insults accomplishes nothing.

Honestly, my main concern is that when you give magical thinking your little finger, it's inclined to take your whole arm in no time.

A place where all ideas and claims hold equal value would be extremely cozy, but all hope of locating useful information among the noise would be lost.

 

[Multicore]

I think we have been agreeing quite a bit all along.

I'm perfectly aware that some people automatically blow a fuse if you even hint to a fallibility of their claims. And in those cases, redicule will likely result in nothing but a mud fight.

As long as I can help it, I will never use redicule as a preliminary retort, and I try my best to aim it at the claim itself and not the person presenting it. Although, some (if not most) people have great difficulty making that distinction. I usually only reach the point of redicule when dealing with the "stubborn pride" groupe here on the forum, and I have no illusion of breaking through the pride. I only hope other readers, who are undecided, will find my arguments useful.

Besides, my personal idea of "redicule" is mostly to cook up an analogy that underlines the absurdity of the claim in question.

Redicule in the form of playground insults accomplishes nothing.

I think we could use more ridicule these days, for some things. I'm actually quite worried by the absence of it for some ridiculous cultural fashions.

Honestly, my main concern is that when you give magical thinking your little finger, it's inclined to take your whole arm in no time.

A place where all ideas and claims hold equal value would be extremely cozy, but all hope of locating useful information among the noise would be lost.

All ideas and claims are not equal so I wouldn't want such a place. I'm addressing the methods we use to sort them out.

 

[davidc]

I had a friend whom I met 30 years ago when we were both in university. We both loved hi-fi and shared the same interests, but he was always the opposite of me. My system was all digital, his was vinyl. I shot with Canon, he was Nikon. I shot with digital, he remained with film (even buying a medium format camera). I was PC, he was Mac. And later I was on Android, and he was on iOS. I cook using modern techniques, he was a strict traditionalist. I liked Italian cars, he liked German (he was right on this one though, DON'T buy an Italian car!). And of course, our differences extended down to politics and religion.

We used to have ridiculous arguments and vicious disagreements about everything, down to insulting each other's intelligence, especially if we have had a bit to drink.

Needless to say, when my outlook on this hobby became more objective, we had arguments about that, too. But despite our ... er ... robust disagreements, we remained good friends. I don't care if people disagree, I care that they can construct intelligent arguments and back it up with logic, reason, and evidence. At least we had that in common, even though in my opinion many of his stances could not be backed up by evidence.

Our disagreement on motorcycles was ended when he sadly he passed away almost 10 years ago from a motorcycle accident. I thought it was unsafe and he would make his wife a widow, and I wept real tears when I was proven right in the most awful way. I still feel emotional thinking about it.

I don't have friends like that any more. Most people seem sensitive to disagreement, and as soon as they ask me about my system, the jig is up.

Well, he was right on the Mac thing, but you were right on the Android thing. LOL

 

[davidc]

Despite ASR has gained big popularity over the years, the world we live in is still full of audiophools. Many of them are, sadly, our friends. It's not enough to unfriend them over their belief in things that we believe are non senses/snake oils, but it's sometimes painful to see what they do or hear what they say about audio.
Today a friend of mine reach out and told me that he got a new silver USB C to USB C, and claimed it brings a lot of clarity to the sound. the harshness he had before was gone.
If I hadn't been on ASR, it was probably fine for me. But now it is so painful to read what he says

It was never a better time for this gif
View attachment 330903

So, the ones and zeros were better over silver. Ask him if you can have his previous cable. It was still probably a good one.

 

[Axo1989]

I think we have been agreeing quite a bit all along.

I'm perfectly aware that some people automatically blow a fuse if you even hint to a fallibility of their claims. And in those cases, redicule will likely result in nothing but a mud fight.

As long as I can help it, I will never use redicule as a preliminary retort, and I try my best to aim it at the claim itself and not the person presenting it. Although, some (if not most) people have great difficulty making that distinction. I usually only reach the point of redicule when dealing with the "stubborn pride" groupe here on the forum, and I have no illusion of breaking through the pride. I only hope other readers, who are undecided, will find my arguments useful.

Besides, my personal idea of "redicule" is mostly to cook up an analogy that underlines the absurdity of the claim in question.

Redicule in the form of playground insults accomplishes nothing.

Honestly, my main concern is that when you give magical thinking your little finger, it's inclined to take your whole arm in no time.

A place where all ideas and claims hold equal value would be extremely cozy, but all hope of locating useful information among the noise would be lost.

I assume redicule is when you insult someone on Reddit.

 

[davidc]

Or tell him, "My ears aren't that good", or maybe that it shouldn't make a difference, or that most people won't hear the difference.

But you could save him a lot of future money (and foolishness) if you do the blind listening test so he'll be more skeptical of his own hearing.

Tell him to get his hearing tested by an audiologist, and watch his shocked reaction when he see's his ears are down by 30dB at 10kHz. If he's lucky.

 

[davidc]

It's more like someone believing that parting their hair on a certain side will make them smarter... but that's still certainly forgivable to a great extent.

Then, mention to the person that their hair is actually parted on the opposite side...they were tricked 'cause they are looking at themselves in the mirror.

 

[MattHooper]

I see where you’re coming from. It seems difficult to strike a balance between conversations based upon scientific fact yet also include subjective tastes here at ASR. We all seek pleasure from slightly different things in audio, there are definitely others on a similar wavelength to yourself.

It does seem that the majority here are like the polar opposite of those on subjective forums but can be equally as pig headed. There has to be some middle ground IMO. That’s not to suggest that one believes in fantasy products or the emperors new clothes, just to because you want to include some subjective reasons or reasons you consider cool for liking a particular thing. Some people here seem to think that taking some middle ground makes you the equivalent of a snake oil believer who listens to the differences in mains cables.

I agree there should be a middle ground...in a sense of just not being extreme. On the other hand it can't really be a split between subjective and objective. (Where by "subjective" in this case I mean things like uncontrolled listening impressions and descriptions). The nature of the forum is towards the objective. On one hand it seems reasonable to accept some level of subjective input so long as we understand the caveats. On the other hand, even with that, too much subjective stuff (like the kind I often write) would make this forum start to look more like a regular audio forum, and here we are supposed to be focusing mainly on the objectively verifiable elements for audio gear.

 

[raif71]

"As far as thread getting closed, I don't really mind. It is what it is and I trust what the admin decided. What I don't believe in is threads getting deleted. It is my understanding that if the thread is closed, number of posts and likes the user get are still counted but if a thread is closed, number of posts and likes the user have from that thread will be deducted, right?"

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I guess I missed the reason for keeping score. What is the purpose again except for reference and information.
If I have to sort through 5000 messages and the total number of words within those 5000 messages was 20,000.
I would steer clear of any thing that was said. It's obvious there is an agenda. I don't know what it is but there is
a reason I'm sure.

This ain't AudioGon, thank God. More information than all the books of congress have been erased from that place.
There might be 10 people posting from 5 years ago that are the same. I quit looking at WBF unless I'm getting the
depressions or something. (not to often). I read thing there that'll make anyone laugh out loud.

Actually after reading the quoted post, it made me chuckle.

Of all the BBS and all the web sites, this is the cleanest site out there. It's a mechanics dream. An actual planned out
BBS that is super easy to navigate without the bullshit like, adds, disliking post with votes, all the kid stuff. That kind
of side-taking is a recipe for ban happy SysOps and Admin staff. None of the people I know even go to AG, AH or
WBF.

"I will leave it to the rest of you to decide on why/how because I simply do not care but "bit for bit" isn't exactly "bit for bit".

Tom"

You see the above quote was taken from a person that has a strange way of thinking and I laughed to no end.
Bit for Bit means exactly the same thing in a digital file. Not one single thing is changed, but this guy swears he
can copy a file from one harddrive to another and hear the difference?

His brain must be HUGE to be able to do that, considering! Keep his head water cooled.
Chernobyl all over again. LOL

Merry Christmas.

Luckily I caught this. Obviously you're quoting me but next time please use the "Reply" button so that I get an indicator at the top right bell button. I do so like keeping tabs and scores.

 

[Keith_W]

Well, he was right on the Mac thing, but you were right on the Android thing. LOL

Now, don't you start! We can meet up, share a beer and have a few vicious arguments about stupid things if you like! Starting with, American beer tastes like beer flavoured cordial.

 

[bodhi]

Imaginary night and day differences based on nonsense is not the kind of middle ground I’m talking about. Your post is just a prime example of what my prior post was getting at. Why do the mere words ‘subjective preference‘ provoke such strong reactions?

They don't. This forum is full of discussions on subjective preferences, like the vinyl thing you mentioned. People, like me, are spending way too much money on stuff that might not be completely reasonable measurements wise. Do you really see much, or any, hostility towards differing subjective preferences?

If not, then what exactly are you referring to with this "middle ground" that needs to be taken?

 

[Drengur]

For some people their hobby is their fort. People might have personal or social issues and being an audiophile is one of those things where people get to feel as if they are in control. Audio publications and audiophile groups have historically been echo-chambers for marketing statements. This has grown into a cult ideology as the enforcement of subjective views has gone mostly unchecked for many decades. As the market for audiophile products has, until recently, been solely dependent upon this pseudo-science feedback loop, there has been little room for scientific viewpoints - as having a podium used to cost a lot of money. The internet allows for a much less expensive and straight-forward way for opinions to be shared, therefore allowing for less marketable facts to be widely available. This in turn allows scientifically minded companies to start marketing products on their technical merits, and not only on lofty subjective prose and appealing to authority (false authority).

I have a feeling that as with most other post-modernist ideologies, the relative audiophilia will die, if not with the boomers (46-64) then most certainly with gen-x (65 - 80). There is a paradigm shift taking place and this forum is one of the venues this is made possible.

Now, how to deal with cult-members? "Well, I respect your right to an opinion, but your whole worldview will vanish with your death."

(I don't have any friends if that wasn't obvious)

 

[DanielT]

For some people their hobby is their fort. People might have personal or social issues and being an audiophile is one of those things where people get to feel as if they are in control. Audio publications and audiophile groups have historically been echo-chambers for marketing statements. This has grown into a cult ideology as the enforcement of subjective views has gone mostly unchecked for many decades. As the market for audiophile products has, until recently, been solely dependent upon this pseudo-science feedback loop, there has been little room for scientific viewpoints - as having a podium used to cost a lot of money. The internet allows for a much less expensive and straight-forward way for opinions to be shared, therefore allowing for less marketable facts to be widely available. This in turn allows scientifically minded companies to start marketing products on their technical merits, and not only on lofty subjective prose and appealing to authority (false authority).

I have a feeling that as with most other post-modernist ideologies, the relative audiophilia will die, if not with the boomers (46-64) then most certainly with gen-x (65 - 80). There is a paradigm shift taking place and this forum is one of the venues this is made possible.

Now, how to deal with cult-members? "Well, I respect your right to an opinion, but your whole worldview will vanish with your death."

(I don't have any friends if that wasn't obvious)

People can believe or imagine anything, as long as it does not harm others and preferably not themselves either. This generally applies to everything. It is even written into the constitution of many countries, freedom of religion that is. So if you want to worship the religion of: Damn unnecessarily expensive cables, ...of course you can, no problem with that.
People can seek fellowship in worshiping damn expensive snake oil forums if they want.

If you want to believe in objective measurement results, believe in it. I know there can be a discussion about what truth is, what objective results mean, relativism, postmodernism and so on BUT despite that there is freedom of religion in most (all?) free democratic countries.

But that freedom does not give those who believe in it the right to force their religion on others. Plus it is rude, bad style to preach your religion to others who are not interested in listening to the preaching.However, an open discussion where you ventilate different views or beliefs can be rewarding. As long as it is done in a respectful manner.