ASR/amirm has opened my eyes.

[Focus SE]

Sensory perception!!!!!!!
There is not one piece of equipment measuring the effects of sound waves between your ear drum and brain and how pleasurable something is or is not to an individual.
While attending the AXPONA show a number of times I can tell you not a single room I went into had what I would call bad sound. It was all clear to me but tonality could not have been more varied even between manufacturers displaying different speakers being pushed with the same equipment. I like a particular sound that I do not have enough audiophile jargon to even try to explain. I like what I like. As best you can at a show like that, I listened to B&W Focal Martin Logan and Legacy. My obvious preference is Legacy. I didn’t PERSONALLY care for Focal at all. Would I ever fault anyone for liking or buying them, no. If classical music is your main thing I like Martin Logan. For jazz B&W. How do you measure that?
That being said science and applied knowledge plays an important part in dispelling wife’s tales within the industry. I’ve benefited from that knowledge here on this site. I thank those that helped, it is invaluable the benefits given here. A healthy level of cynicism and common sense go a long way.

 

[ROOSKIE]

Sensory perception!!!!!!!
There is not one piece of equipment measuring the effects of sound waves between your ear drum and brain and how pleasurable something is or is not to an individual.
While attending the AXPONA show a number of times I can tell you not a single room I went into had what I would call bad sound. It was all clear to me but tonality could not have been more varied even between manufacturers displaying different speakers being pushed with the same equipment. I like a particular sound that I do not have enough audiophile jargon to even try to explain. I like what I like. As best you can at a show like that, I listened to B&W Focal Martin Logan and Legacy. My obvious preference is Legacy. I didn’t PERSONALLY care for Focal at all. Would I ever fault anyone for liking or buying them, no. If classical music is your main thing I like Martin Logan. For jazz B&W. How do you measure that?
That being said science and applied knowledge plays an important part in dispelling wife’s tales within the industry. I’ve benefited from that knowledge here on this site. I thank those that helped, it is invaluable the benefits given here. A healthy level of cynicism and common sense go a long way.

There are ways to test the minds influence and personal biases.

Brand/product concealed testing is one.

If you prefer 'Martin Logan' for jazz in a brand/product concealed test(blind) that would be telling.

Based on many studies of many product types and sensory perceptions across many different areas of interest, the reality of such a test maybe significantly different from your current vision.

Hide the product from sight or slap two different labels and prices on the same product and many folks have totally different perceptions of the same item.

Of course who gets the chance.


as an aside, I was sorely disappointed in the sound of many expensive systems @axpona and appalled at the endless use of ridiculously designed wires and rooms with turntables spinning for glow and show.
I did generally enjoy the event itself as it was my 1st time. Not sure I'd go back unless the high end industry comes around to their senses a bit.
It was a well run event though decidedly lux vs performance.

Who knows.

 

[Focus SE]

There are ways to test the minds influence and personal biases.

Brand/product concealed testing is one.

If you prefer 'Martin Logan' for jazz in a brand/product concealed test(blind) that would be telling.

Based on many studies of many product types and sensory perceptions across many different areas of interest, the reality of such a test maybe significantly different from your current vision.

Hide the product from sight or slap two different labels and prices on the same product and many folks have totally different perceptions of the same item.

Of course who gets the chance.


as an aside, I was sorely disappointed in the sound of many expensive systems @axpona and appalled at the endless use of ridiculously designed wires and rooms with turntables spinning for glow and show.
I did generally enjoy the event itself as it was my 1st time. Not sure I'd go back unless the high end industry comes around to their senses a bit.
It was a well run event though decidedly lux vs performance.

Who knows.

Agreed bad environment with too much useless bling but the only reason to go back is to see touch and feel and kind of listen to the widest variety in one spot I’ll find in Chicagoland. I was in APT. And the had a 38k set of B&W’s so poorly staged and sounding awful. So even getting them in front of you doesn’t always help either if they’re slapped in a room and expected to wow you. It’s crazy because they are nice speakers

 

[MarkS]

Sensory perception!!!!!!!
There is not one piece of equipment measuring the effects of sound waves between your ear drum and brain and how pleasurable something is or is not to an individual.

Absolutely true. But it is possible to tell whether or not the brain can perceive a difference at all between set of sound waves #1 and set of sound waves #2.

Often in audiophilia, people claim to hear differences between two pieces of equipment (amps, say) that they then cannot perceive when their other senses (most notably sight) are not also used.

 

[Homard]

I have really been enjoying internet radio begging the question of what use are the 4 fairly high quality, but unused fm tuners that I have in the house. The combination of the Wiim Pro, a Schiit DAC, and an old Kloss 88 radio (used only for its amp and built-in speakers) produced a significant upgrade in sound in a bedroom. Pity those fm tuners are not good paperweights.

 

[Anton D]

I have really been enjoying internet radio begging the question of what use are the 4 fairly high quality, but unused fm tuners that I have in the house. The combination of the Wiim Pro, a Schiit DAC, and an old Kloss 88 radio (used only for its amp and built-in speakers) produced a significant upgrade in sound in a bedroom. Pity those fm tuners are not good paperweights.

Gotta wait for the FM Renaissance.

 

[afinepoint]

There are ways to test the minds influence and personal biases.

Agreed. Marketing knows all to well. Just as data can lead us in a direction of better understanding it can imply something is there that we hear because we want to. Not because we can. Thus that double blind test.

Hide the product from sight or slap two different labels and prices on the same product and many folks have totally different perceptions of the same item.

Yup. Or two different charts.

I was sorely disappointed in the sound of many expensive systems @axpona and appalled at the endless use of ridiculously designed wires and rooms with turntables spinning for glow and show.

I doubt if many of the sales people can explain manual vs semi vs auto. Or MM vs MC.

 

[DMill]

I doubt if many of the sales people can explain manual vs semi vs auto. Or MM vs MC.

I would like to think at a trade show vendors would be knowledgeable about their offerings and the market. But sadly, that isn’t always the case. I find these events a lot of fun. It’s great to see new gear. But I don’t place much stock in a makeshift listening room with 15 other people.

 

[afinepoint]

I would like to think at a trade show vendors would be knowledgeable about their offerings and the market. But sadly, that isn’t always the case. I find these events a lot of fun. It’s great to see new gear. But I don’t place much stock in a makeshift listening room with 15 other people.

Sorry I was speaking of store salesmen. Yes vendors should be up on their products.

 

[RayDunzl]

Florida Audio Expo:

Found a room with Magnepans.

The exhibitor only knew about the Optical Record Cartridge he was showing.

The rest of the gear was just a necessary evil to him.

 

[ROOSKIE]

I would like to think at a trade show vendors would be knowledgeable about their offerings and the market. But sadly, that isn’t always the case. I find these events a lot of fun. It’s great to see new gear. But I don’t place much stock in a makeshift listening room with 15 other people.

Sorry I was speaking of store salesmen. Yes vendors should be up on their products.

Who knows even vendors are going to be doing what they 'think' even in the face of whatever an ASR type of folk might 'think'.

In the Definitive technology room the speakers being auditioned where the newish DM80 towers @$5k a pair. The host kept appologizing for the AVR powering them (which was handling them with ease and perfectly... especially in a smallish room and with the speakers having dedicated subs+amps in the towers for the bass) And he kept appologing for the speakers not being 'broken in'.
Funny thing is they sounded awesome to me and one of the best listening expereinces at the AXPONA. The speakers were totally worth $5k, unlike 90% of everything else.

The Host shouldn't have been doing that job, he was not selling them despite the great sound.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

I read the first 7 pages to the end and then hit last page and saw 22 pages and decided to have fun at ASR rather than Audiogon. Audiogon is STEM illiteracy showing it's head. I learned stuff reading the thread but it was not mind bending and was more to the humanities.

STEM illiteracy reveals an essential element of STEM. Funding of STEM research demands "modern" orthodoxy. No different than any century of two millennium.

 

[voodooless]

Funding of STEM research demands "modern" orthodoxy.

I don’t think that funding more research will do anything to solve the illiteracy at Audiogon though

 

[kemmler3D]

If classical music is your main thing I like Martin Logan. For jazz B&W.

This actually makes total sense to me in objective terms if you're talking the ML ESLs. The dipole behavior brings the space into your space, or rather transforms your room, this works for classical because it's recorded with a lot of natural reverb.

Jazz benefits from B&W because they hype the bass and treble, and since Jazz is harmonically sparse compared to various genres, it tends to make it sparkle rather than sound iffy.

While attending the AXPONA show a number of times I can tell you not a single room I went into had what I would call bad sound.

When I went to AXPONA a few years back I thought all the rooms sounded like the rooms, i.e. wet cardboard. You could tell the gear was decent but I usually can't get past the room in those situations. I'm glad at least someone liked the acoustics in that place, lol.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

I don’t think that funding more research will do anything to solve the illiteracy at Audiogon though

That's my point.

 

[Ironrick]

Hello to all,

Yes I've just registered and though this is my first post I've visited and read ASR for some time. It has always been a part of my research for gear. This is not a trolling. I wasn't sure where best to post so moderators kindly move it as required.

I've read the subjects here, tucked away the data and comments and continued on my way. I do feel however the need to chime in on the review of the PS Audio Gain Cell from years ago. I know it's an older post but I've just started researching DACs and the Gain Cell among them. Being the replies in that post are well over 130 pages I thought to simply make a new post as I was not sure if my reply would even be seen.

Why comment on what is a well worn post? Because I read digested and had a revelation which has profoundly changed my opinion on equipment reviews.

In that post amirm was asked if he had done listened to the DAC to which he replied he didn't have the time. At first that annoyed me as how could you review a piece of "audio" equipment with hearing it. That's half of a review. I left and thought about things for sometime and then came to my revelation. He didn't have to listen to the Gain Cell nor any piece of equipment. That's not it seems his purpose. He is giving and explaining the raw data and letting the reader decide what to do with it. His listening would only tell me what his ears heard.

I realized going strictly by a reviewer"s aural experience is like asking him how he liked his meal. Sit people around a table and give them the exact same dish and you'll Iikley get different opinions. Too salty, not salty enough, too spicy, too bland etc. Now I will say like this meal if there is a consensus among reviewers that agree the speakers for instance sound bright or the pre amp is giving the music a sense of warmth then it probably is. There is solid agreement across the board that tubes add warmth. So they do.

I appreciate what amirm is doing and find worth in it. Do I understand all the graphs and lingo? No, but that's on me to figure out.

I have visited and posted in the PS Audio forum asking for input on the M series of amplifiers. I also found worth in those replies but they were subjective so I had to take them for that.

I will state there is a serious Hatfields and McCoy's feud between these two forums which makes it more difficult to filter facts. Yelling and hurling insults dilutes the credibility of those doing so and stains the validity of their comments and too the platform in this case the forum. This circling of the wagons is needless. Opinions are just that. I believe it was a Seafair that casted a dissenting view and was absolutely pummeled which immediately put him/her on the defensive. We can certainly agree to disagree.

PS Audio"s reply by Paul using the word poo and his refusal to address amirm's response left me disgusted. I definitely will not be buying that Gain Cell which I had been researching. Further it puts the purchase of a set of M1200s in jeopardy. His comments really put me off. I also have always found his videos condescending. Why can't he just answer the question without pontificating.
I've called PS Audio more than once before and spoken with the sales/tech and I felt they were telling me what I wanted to hear. I'll probably ask about those M1200 amps here in a separate post.

Fortunately I have a backup amp should the M1200s fall through. Tonewinner AD 1PA.

In conclusion thanks to amirm and ASR. Keep up the good work.

Thank again.

Afinepoint

I rarely come here at all. To much immature trash talk for me.

 

[BDWoody]

I rarely come here at all. To much immature trash talk for me.

So your first post is to be a buzzkill in a thread meant to show a little appreciation to the forum and it's host, to let us know we aren't the place for you?

Cool...

Happy trails.

 

[afinepoint]

I rarely come here at all. To much immature trash talk for me.

Yes, like other forums threads get high jacked and there can be comments best kept to oneself but though I don't always agree with the opinions I find value in ASR. And yes, I've been guilty of the crime of engaging when I should not have. Although having to navigate the static at times this forum has greatly helped in the building of my system. I like that Amir gives solid data allowing me an unbiased starting point.

Not ever forum is for all. You just need to know when to listen and when to ignore. When I run across a thread that has gone awry or those "immature" remarks as you put it I just skip ahead. I have faith that the moderators will step in and coach the offender and we move on.

Good luck in finding something that better suits your tastes.

 

[EJ3]

And yes, I've been guilty of the crime of engaging when I should not have. Although having to navigate the static at times this forum has greatly helped in the building of my system. I like that Amir gives solid data allowing me an unbiased starting point.

I fully agree!

You just need to know when to listen and when to ignore. When I run across a thread that has gone awry or those "immature" remarks as you put it I just skip ahead. I have faith that the moderators will step in and coach the offender and we move on.

Advice that I definitely need to take far more often.
I guess that I AM a "WORK IN PROGRESS".

 

[dzerig]

I realized going strictly by a reviewer"s aural experience is like asking him how he liked his meal. Sit people around a table and give them the exact same dish and you'll Iikley get different opinions. Too salty, not salty enough, too spicy, too bland etc. Now I will say like this meal if there is a consensus among reviewers that agree the speakers for instance sound bright or the pre amp is giving the music a sense of warmth then it probably is. There is solid agreement across the board that tubes add warmth. So they do.

Personally, I wonder why subjective reviews are allowed to be used in ads. Only measurements are never misleading.