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The pain of being a member of ASR

Axo1989

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Sure.
Not talking about you being self-righteous,
Sometimes have to take a breather of some that goes on around here.

There you go, and looks like I misinterpreted your post, which is oddly appropriate. Hopefully I didn't make a too-negative response based on that ... :)
 

MKR

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That was an epic thread, started before my time but I assume I posted there. :)

Edit: wait, no that's wrong, I've been here a year longer than I thought ... where did the time go?
Thank you sir (and indeed time flies!) ... The $30k thread was a lot of fun and for the most part all participants behaved like adults and I hope in the end the discourse helped others as much as it did me. Of course then the "toddlers" decided to rear their ugly heads and down the crapper it went. For what it's worth, the quest continues and I plan to start a new thread here at some point (around Feb timeframe), likely to come just after my attendance at the Florida Audio Expo along with a show report. Note the primary reasons I have delayed my selection is three-fold (I am sure many are thinking why doesn't this guy just make up his mind already :p) ... My housing situation has changed and I no longer have a listening room for my end game speakers (hopefully that gets corrected in the next few months!), I have become aware of a new flagship design coming soon from a manufacturer whose current design happens to be on my short list (want to hear this one before I make my decision, it should be epic based upon what I know!), and finally, awaiting some new active speaker amp tech and drivers to be available that another vendor with speaker on my short list will be using in a future design.
 

MattHooper

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Thank you sir (and indeed time flies!) ... The $30k thread was a lot of fun and for the most part all participants behaved like adults and I hope in the end the discourse helped others as much as it did me. Of course then the "toddlers" decided to rear their ugly heads and down the crapper it went. For what it's worth, the quest continues and I plan to start a new thread here at some point (around Feb timeframe), likely to come just after my attendance at the Florida Audio Expo along with a show report. Note the primary reasons I have delayed my selection is three-fold (I am sure many are thinking why doesn't this guy just make up his mind already :p) ... My housing situation has changed and I no longer have a listening room for my end game speakers (hopefully that gets corrected in the next few months!), I have become aware of a new flagship design coming soon from a manufacturer whose current design happens to be on my short list (want to hear this one before I make my decision, it should be epic based upon what I know!), and finally, awaiting some new active speaker amp tech and drivers to be available that another vendor with speaker on my short list will be using in a future design.

Looking forward to your thread. I always enjoy reading about people's audio journeys and decision making process.
 

majingotan

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Despite ASR has gained big popularity over the years, the world we live in is still full of audiophools. Many of them are, sadly, our friends. It's not enough to unfriend them over their belief in things that we believe are non senses/snake oils, but it's sometimes painful to see what they do or hear what they say about audio.
Today a friend of mine reach out and told me that he got a new silver USB C to USB C, and claimed it brings a lot of clarity to the sound. the harshness he had before was gone.
If I hadn't been on ASR, it was probably fine for me. But now it is so painful to read what he says

It was never a better time for this gif
View attachment 330903

Same setiments. A friend of mine loaned me his Audioquest Diamond USB-C to USB-B and I A/Bed it against the bog standard Schiit PYST USB-A to USB-B cable made by straight wire company and even I couldn't detect a single difference whatsoever with sighted listening already. No difference between Silver vs Copper conductors whatsoever

1701658392180.png
 

JP

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All too often the arguments are presented in an aggressive and personally hurtful manner.
Hopefully, someday, there will be some effort to reel that in.

However, the current atmosphere in ASR has made me question where the true benefit and enjoyment lies. I am also considering whether I can continue to make a constructive contribution to the discussions.
Fully understand. I appreciate your contributions.
 

Multicore

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You mention sports - yeah, I can never figure that out, either.
This question of sports was on my mind and I started to write an answer expanding on the old story of sports as ritualized conflict/combat and it struck me that maybe it's the practice of this conflict over the so-called objective/subjective sectarian divide that delivers the reward. That's what keeps it stubbornly going on forever and maybe explains why it's predominantly among men but only some men. Like all fully ritualized fighting it's ultimately about honor.

But elaborating the idea would be a lot and I'm sure the above is more than enough to get me in trouble.
 

Todd k

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This question of sports was on my mind and I started to write an answer expanding on the old story of sports as ritualized conflict/combat and it struck me that maybe it's the practice of this conflict over the so-called objective/subjective sectarian divide that delivers the reward. That's what keeps it stubbornly going on forever and maybe explains why it's predominantly among men but only some men. Like all fully ritualized fighting it's ultimately about honor.

But elaborating the idea would be a lot and I'm sure the above is more than enough to get me in trouble.
There is no honor in some of the total BS spewed on alot of the audio forums. I have been a Agon member since their early days, that place is the gold standard of subjective snake oil rambling. This place is tremendous for the amount of fact based and helpful advice the membership gives. Very much appreciate ASR.
 

Multicore

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There is no honor in some of the total BS spewed on alot of the audio forums. I have been a Agon member since their early days, that place is the gold standard of subjective snake oil rambling. This place is tremendous for the amount of fact based and helpful advice the membership gives. Very much appreciate ASR.
I like ASR too. It is compatible with my personal preference which is Pragamtic Antiaudiophile™ and my equipment choices reflect it, I think.

Have you seen the Master Thread: Are measurements Everything or Nothing? The title of that thread is genius because measurements are obviously neither of those. What interests me is how come this is the central sectarian issue of audiophiles, has been for a long time, and seems set to remain so. That's a pattern that I think needs explnation. What is the motive force that keeps it alive as an argument? I'm curious. I sometimes try to take a detached view and speculate on that. That's all I was doing.
 

Multicore

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Nice wording, but is it really credible in your case? I perceived you differently with your undeniably sound musical knowledge and skills.
Credible is for you to decide. I argue it's consistent with my other contributions here.

My interest in audio gear is mostly utilitarian. Think of the difference between decorative and utilitarian ceramics. The bowl in which you stir your cake mix can be no more than a tool, i.e. utilitarian. Or it can also be decorative and beautiful so you keep it on a shelf where you can enjoy seeing it. Or it can so decoratively fine that you never use it as a tool for fear fear of damage. These are differences of subjectivity with respect to ceramic bowls.

The market for audio equipment appears to allow a similar analysis. There are those for whom the equipment is the object of joy and pride. This is what I call audiophillia and people who practice this hobby are audiophiles. I have a number of issues with it that I think allow myself to count myself antiaudiophile.

1. It seems to me there is a coherent aesthetic that has emerged in the market for audiophile equipment and I find it repellent. It's not for me. I don't want to describe it here and refer you to the ASR threads with photos from audiophile trade shows, most of which seem jaw-droppingly freakish to me. I went to one audio show like this in the mid 1980s and that was enough.

2. The practice of audiophile listening seems perverse to me, with its optimized listening position for the arbitrary two-channel loud speakers. (Remember, I'm also the antistereophile, I like mono and deplore stereo as at best a con and often actually evil.) I can sit still at a concert but listening to records there's nothing happening to look at and I easily get restless. The Maxell man in his Le Corbusier club chair is a useful icon of this practice that doesn't appeal to me. He looks lonely too.

3. I have a large collection of recordings, many of which I love, but I'm also critical of the antisocial nature of recorded music. I believe in the spiritual powers in the social practice of music making and because of that I resent the objectification of music, either by recording and the heavy commercialization thereof or by turning music into high and/or remote art. The audiophile focus on investing in ever better reproduction of recorded objects seems another misdirected effort or it represents an unfortunate downstream effect of the way recording domineers music in our time.

Against all these negatives, I recognize that audio reproduction involves a tricky collection of engineering problems and I admire good engineering. I am cursed to be able to hear some defects in audio reproduction and sometimes they annoy me. If I hear defects in my everyday listening that I can control then I want to fix them. It turns out that getting good sound in our large living room requires non-trivial loudspeakers, which in turn make requirements on amplification. I found ASR in I believe 2018 or 19 while I was struggling and increasingly frustrated with the BS and technical confusion in the market. My desktop system has been Genelec 1029A going on 20 years and despite ASR it hasn't changed. These systems are now serving their purposes quite well. For me, upgrades are about debugging, fixing problems I can hear.

Hence pagmatic antiaudiophile. A fundamentalist antiaudiophile would probably not be able to justify/rationalize our loud speakers.

Since I'm a live-and-let-live kind of person, my antiaudiophilia doesn't involve active opposition to those who enjoy audio reproduction equipment as a decorative art (in the sense I gave at the start of this post). It's just not for me as a lifestyle or hobby for the reasons I gave above. You are an example of someone with both a music hobby and an audiophile hobby. Your minimalist vaccum tube amps and fancy-looking speakers seem to me esoteric and I can imagine the fun in that as I can, for example, in someone who studies and practices Babylonian astrology.

Why declare myself antiaudiophile at all? Idk. Probably because I'm on ASR and wanted to write something mildly amusing that might provoke interesting discussion. And why am I on ASR when I'm not in the market for any upgrades or to set up new systems? That's a very good question. What do you think?
 

computer-audiophile

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... And why am I on ASR when I'm not in the market for any upgrades or to set up new systems?
Great contribution! I had a lot of fun reading it. On many points we are not as far apart as you might probably think. I think I can agree 100% with #1 e.g.:

The current audio gear design I see at high-end trade fairs appears to me as degenerated, overdone an often wrong.
And I am also asking myself the same question you ask at the end. (see my quote)

I still have to think about the other points. :)
 

Waxx

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Great contribution! I had a lot of fun reading it. On many points we are not as far apart as you might probably think. I think I can agree 100% with #1 e.g.:

The current audio gear design I see at high-end trade fairs appears to me as degenerated, overdone an often wrong.
And I am also asking myself the same question you ask at the end. (see my quote)

I still have to think about the other points. :)
It's looks are also aiming at a certain public, the very rich older with bad taste who love shiny stuff. Most people, at least in Europe have moved away from that asthetic and more fancy a minimal, what they call "japanese" or "scandinavian" styling, where simple natural materials are used, in a functional minimalist form, not those shiny bling bling styling that is very 20st century. And that group in Europe is getting bigger and richer, and is not catered in the classic hi end market at all now.

Some EU builders tapped into that style, and got a big following very fast, one of them is the French Pearl Acoustics, that make beautifull looking oak speakers that are largely based on the open source Pencil speakers, designed by Scott Lindgen (Scottmoose/Woden Designs) & David Dlugos (Planet10) on Diyaudio.com. Boenicke another brand that features that styling and is very popular. From amps, the minimalistic designs are also more and more common, you see it in the designs of audiophonics and Lyndorf, but also in the non bling design of Prima Luna tube amps (that are Dutch).
 

grandpixel

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I have had to put up with many many individuals throughout my life who made al kinds of nonsense claims over a wide variety of subjects.

- people believing that the government poisoned us all with planes, the chemtrails
- people believing in different gods
- people claiming that the government / big oil has devices which can make energy out of nothing
- people who believe in miracles, like a miracle cure against diseases
- people who say evolution theory is just a theory (well you know man, that’s just your opinion)
- people believing that big pharma is withholding a cure for cancer to continu making money

I smile and move on.

You wanna bring religion into this? You gotta be awfully religious to believe in evolution. That’s all I have to say.
 

fpitas

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bodhi

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There is no honor in some of the total BS spewed on alot of the audio forums. I have been a Agon member since their early days, that place is the gold standard of subjective snake oil rambling. This place is tremendous for the amount of fact based and helpful advice the membership gives. Very much appreciate ASR.
I also think that the debate is not about honor. You can see exactly the same kind of behavior in other hobbies, where science was introduced, often conflicting with traditional wisdom.

Take fitness industry, which is worth some $100 billion: it has vast amount of supplements, diets and training regimens sold by professionals. People identify very strongly as lifestylers, who weigh every crumb of food they eat, consume dozens of different supplements and train hours per day with esoteric programs. Science basically tells us that if you train a few hours a week with a simple program and follow diet guidelines (both fit one sheet of paper) you can get 95% of the results your genetics allow. If you accept that then what is there to separate yourself as advanced, hardcore hobbyist from the average trainee?

Same thing with hifi. Agreeing to ASR principles you don't need years of experience finding just the right combination of devices worth tens of thousands, just pick some of the more affordable SOTA speakers with minidsp with room correction and a hypex amp, ask the dealer to include any cables they have lying around. If you need a sub, just pick large enough for your room. You might be done for your audiophile journey in a day. Horrible thought, if you want to identify as a serious practitioner.
 

fpitas

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fpitas

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We ought to have some rule like, get a thread closed and you get a timeout. Get a few closed and you get a kick-out.
 
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