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How would you answer these questions? (Acoustics Insider Darko Interview)

it could also help a fair bit to gather all the subjective impressions he could find in advance to get an idea if the speakers would suit his taste or not.
Or it might generate a mental state where expectation bias can thrive, although I accept that can also be true of just looking at the measurements. Flowery prose seems to be much more powerful though.

Personally I only ever read the subjective reviews after I've bought the speakers. :)
 
I have heard good measuring speakers which I didn't like the sound of, so the best thing is to listen to the speakers myself. I look at measurements and read subjective reviews and combine all the information I can get hold of, and everything helps me get an idea if a certain loudspeaker may suit my taste or not. I don't put all my eggs in one basket and just "believe" what Darko says, I speak in general and gather all the information I can get my hands on if I'm interested in audio gear.

Why do you think your client went for the Genelecs over your beloved D&D 8Cs?
That's simple, the Genelecs simply suited his taste better which is when the subjective part of things comes into play, and besides listening to the speaker himself, it could also help a fair bit to gather all the subjective impressions he could find in advance to get an idea if the speakers would suit his taste or not. Just looking at the measurement would maybe lead him to think the two speakers would sound more similar to each other than what they actually do, even if both of them are considered neutral-sounding speakers. It all comes down to taste in the end.
Or put the eggs up on the wall. :D

Bremen 3D8 Egg:
Bremen_3D8_Swedish_bronze.jpgBremen_990.jpg
Considering the construction, Bremen 3D8 should be fairly wide-dispersing speakers. Whether you like that sound or not, you have to listen to it. That's how it is for me anyway. Speaking of measurements, that is.:)

Whether that type of speaker fits into one's listening room is another question, and I'm not just talking about the aesthetic and possibility of physical placement of them. If the room is also very sound absorbent, this in itself should work against the design principle for those speakers. Anyway mostly speculation on my part.
 
Or it might generate a mental state where expectation bias can thrive, although I accept that can also be true of just looking at the measurements. Flowery prose seems to be much more powerful though.

Personally I only ever read the subjective reviews after I've bought the speakers. :)

What I'm usually looking for in particular is the subjective impressions from users who have gotten rid of the loudspeakers I'm interested in, what the reason for that was, and if that particular aspect would be something I think would be a problem for me as well in the longer run.

Another thing I look for is if the reviewer or the user has experience with other speakers I also have experience with, how they compare the sound of those speakers, what they may think is lacking, or what they found better with one of the speakers. If I find the person's descriptions of the known speakers to be a pretty accurate description of how I perceive the sound of those speakers, I will likely put more trust in their descriptions of other speakers too. As said, the more I know of the person's taste in sound based on the description that may mirror my own experience of the same speakers, the better.

It's possible to both look at measurements and read subjective impressions to get a fairly good idea of the sound of a loudspeaker. I think both can give good initial information before I get the chance to listen to the speakers in person.
 
Or put the eggs up on the wall. :D

Bremen 3D8 Egg:
View attachment 371162View attachment 371163
Considering the construction, Bremen 3D8 should be fairly wide-dispersing speakers. Whether you like that sound or not, you have to listen to it. That's how it is for me anyway. Speaking of measurements, that is.:)

Whether that type of speaker fits into one's listening room is another question, and I'm not just talking about the aesthetic and possibility of physical placement of them. If the room is also very sound absorbent, this in itself should work against the design principle for those speakers. Anyway mostly speculation on my part.

I have never heard Peter's egg-formed wall speakers, but many people seem to like them :)

As you know, they are meant to be placed on the side walls, so I guess the room dimensions must play an important role in how they will work in different environments. He always talks about the center speaker solution with a special algorithm that is supposed to go with the side wall speakers, but it seems to take forever for that solution to be released. Anyway, that center speaker should come in handy if the side walls are too far apart (I guess).
I think he should start selling that center speaker to his existing customers, I think they have been waiting long enough for that to be released. :)
 
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I have heard good measuring speakers which I didn't like the sound of, so the best thing is to listen to the speakers myself. I look at measurements and read subjective reviews and combine all the information I can get hold of, and everything helps me get an idea if a certain loudspeaker may suit my taste or not. I don't put all my eggs in one basket and just "believe" what Darko says, I speak in general and gather all the information I can get my hands on if I'm interested in audio gear.

Why do you think your client went for the Genelecs over your beloved D&D 8Cs?
That's simple, the Genelecs simply suited his taste better which is when the subjective part of things comes into play, and besides listening to the speaker himself, it could also help a fair bit to gather all the subjective impressions he could find in advance to get an idea if the speakers would suit his taste or not. Just looking at the measurement would maybe lead him to think the two speakers would sound more similar to each other than what they actually do, even if both of them are considered neutral-sounding speakers. It all comes down to taste in the end.
No not really Charlie liked the 8Cs but in his very small room it would have meant a complete 90 degree room change and he was just beginning a new project.
They didn’t sound that different Genelecs always ( to me at least) sound a bit thin which is just their target curve.
Keith
 
What I'm usually looking for in particular is the subjective impressions from users who have gotten rid of the loudspeakers I'm interested in, what the reason for that was, and if that particular aspect would be something I think would be a problem for me as well in the longer run.
Not a bad idea that.

One thing I do notice is how many of a speaker there are for sale on the secondary market. If there's lots on eBay it does make me think.

I was idlily looking for some JBL Classic L100 (the re-issue version) for the TV system. I know they don't measure that well but I always wanted the originals and it's for a non-critical application.

Since they've been out a few years now thought I might save a few bob and get a second hand pair, however there's absolutely nothing going. But if I wanted, for example, the KEF LS50 (which came out roughly the same time) I could fill my boots.
 
That does rather depend though on how many units sold.
Keith
 
I have heard good measuring speakers which I didn't like the sound of, so the best thing is to listen to the speakers myself. I look at measurements and read subjective reviews and combine all the information I can get hold of, and everything helps me get an idea if a certain loudspeaker may suit my taste or not. I don't put all my eggs in one basket and just "believe" what Darko says, I speak in general and gather all the information I can get my hands on if I'm interested in audio gear.

Why do you think your client went for the Genelecs over your beloved D&D 8Cs?
That's simple, the Genelecs simply suited his taste better which is when the subjective part of things comes into play, and besides listening to the speaker himself, it could also help a fair bit to gather all the subjective impressions he could find in advance to get an idea if the speakers would suit his taste or not. Just looking at the measurement would maybe lead him to think the two speakers would sound more similar to each other than what they actually do, even if both of them are considered neutral-sounding speakers. It all comes down to taste in the end.
To me a good measuring speaker is only half the work done, you have to tune them to your own liking afterwards. It's like buying some fine wooden boards at some standard length to build something with and using them as is instead of cutting them, sure it can work sometimes if you're lucky enough for them to fit your particular needs, but most of the time you have to cut them to a specific length for your project, just as you want to EQ the speakers to make them sound the way you want them to, and to do that it's easiest to start with speakers that's as flat and good measuring as possible :)
 
No not really Charlie liked the 8Cs but in his very small room it would have meant a complete 90 degree room change and he was just beginning a new project.
They didn’t sound that different Genelecs always ( to me at least) sound a bit thin which is just their target curve.
Keith

Or maybe Charlie just thought the 8Cs sounded too thick to his liking. If I remember it correctly from that thread, he said he thought the Dutch speakers lacked the sparkle at the top which he liked about the Genelecs.

The thing is that he may not have spilled all the beans about why he didn't go with 8Cs as you as the dealer were there, he may have said things more politely because of that, which I think everyone would have done in that circumstance. It's perfectly possible that he would never even have tried them out if a close audio friend, who knows the in-and-out of why he likes his Genelecs, had said he wouldn't think the 8Cs would suit his reference of a more sparkling-sounding top end or something similar to that.

Yes, all that is just speculation, but you as the dealer who had gone the extra mileage of a home demo may not have heard the real reasons for the customer not buying the speakers. Just saying. :)
 
To me a good measuring speaker is only half the work done, you have to tune them to your own liking afterwards. It's like buying some fine wooden boards at some standard length to build something with and using them as is instead of cutting them, sure it can work sometimes if you're lucky enough for them to fit your particular needs, but most of the time you have to cut them to a specific length for your project, just as you want to EQ the speakers to make them sound the way you want them to, and to do that it's easiest to start with speakers that's as flat and good measuring as possible :)

I think it's possible to tune the speakers to one's liking to a certain degree, but I don't think you can easily tune one speaker to sound like another one even if both of them are considered to be fairly neutral. So that's when taste comes in and the best outcome is probably had if we choose a speaker that better "speaks" to our taste from the get-go.
 
I think it's possible to tune the speakers to one's liking to a certain degree, but I don't think you can easily tune one speaker to sound like another one even if both of them are considered to be fairly neutral. So that's when taste comes in and the best outcome is probably had if we choose a speaker that better "speaks" to our taste from the get-go.
You can play a lot with reflections and dispersion. The advantage or a flat response, at any width of dispersion, is easier predictability.
 
Or maybe Charlie just thought the 8Cs sounded too thick to his liking. If I remember it correctly from that thread, he said he thought the Dutch speakers lacked the sparkle at the top which he liked about the Genelecs.

The thing is that he may not have spilled all the beans about why he didn't go with 8Cs as you as the dealer were there, he may have said things more politely because of that, which I think everyone would have done in that circumstance. It's perfectly possible that he would never even have tried them out if a close audio friend, who knows the in-and-out of why he likes his Genelecs, had said he wouldn't think the 8Cs would suit his reference of a more sparkling-sounding top end or something similar to that.

Yes, all that is just speculation, but you as the dealer who had gone the extra mileage of a home demo may not have heard the real reasons for the customer not buying the speakers. Just saying. :)
He had Amphions too, the Gens were in terms of tonality the outlier.
Charlie wasn’t a ‘close audio friend’ very nice chap though.
Keith
 
Not a bad idea that.

One thing I do notice is how many of a speaker there are for sale on the secondary market. If there's lots on eBay it does make me think.

I was idlily looking for some JBL Classic L100 (the re-issue version) for the TV system. I know they don't measure that well but I always wanted the originals and it's for a non-critical application.

Since they've been out a few years now thought I might save a few bob and get a second hand pair, however there's absolutely nothing going. But if I wanted, for example, the KEF LS50 (which came out roughly the same time) I could fill my boots.
You really DON't want original L100's or the pro equivalent. they squawk badly on speech no matter what you do with the controls and even Tannoys, themselves rather coloured, sounded 'better' on singer's vocals...

My local audio salon had the new L100's on dem some years back (but the swines didn't tell me) and despite my pleas, I was the only one who visited their show and chatted to them subsequently, who expressed an interest and of course I wasn't a buyer. They cancelled their order and that was that! I gather that 'retro reincarnations,' no matter how improved and updated they are (Linton Heritage is another), UK buyers just don't want to know so you won't find any/many on the used market here. Show them a slim tower PMC or B&W and they buy!!!

You know, you'd be surprised how solid the build and basically neutral the sound is from Rega RX3's which were £1400 or so the pair and which now come up for just a very few hundred used. I liked the previous RS3's too, but that crisp tweeter balance was too much unless you use one of their home made dullard MM's (in the process of being replaced after forty years thankfully now). For TV use, you may well find vocals clearer than many 'audiophile' speakers on the used market and yes, Rega did always have at least basic measurement facilities...
 
You really DON't want original L100's or the pro equivalent. they squawk badly on speech no matter what you do with the controls and even Tannoys, themselves rather coloured, sounded 'better' on singer's vocals...

My local audio salon had the new L100's on dem some years back (but the swines didn't tell me) and despite my pleas, I was the only one who visited their show and chatted to them subsequently, who expressed an interest and of course I wasn't a buyer. They cancelled their order and that was that! I gather that 'retro reincarnations,' no matter how improved and updated they are (Linton Heritage is another), UK buyers just don't want to know so you won't find any/many on the used market here. Show them a slim tower PMC or B&W and they buy!!!

You know, you'd be surprised how solid the build and basically neutral the sound is from Rega RX3's which were £1400 or so the pair and which now come up for just a very few hundred used. I liked the previous RS3's too, but that crisp tweeter balance was too much unless you use one of their home made dullard MM's (in the process of being replaced after forty years thankfully now). For TV use, you may well find vocals clearer than many 'audiophile' speakers on the used market and yes, Rega did always have at least basic measurement facilities...
It was the re-issue I was looking at not the originals, but I'd consider the originals as I don't recall them being that bad at all.

Like I said not a critical application, TV system is where I have a bit of fun, I mean it has a Technics spectrum analyser - just for kicks. :)

RX3 is no use - it needs to be a bookshelf speaker as they have to sit on a brick plinth that's built in to the room.
 
I think it's possible to tune the speakers to one's liking to a certain degree, but I don't think you can easily tune one speaker to sound like another one even if both of them are considered to be fairly neutral. So that's when taste comes in and the best outcome is probably had if we choose a speaker that better "speaks" to our taste from the get-go.
Sure depending on the dispersion two different speakers will sound a bit different if you tune them exactly the same given they are placed in the same room etc, but I don't think the difference is that big (unless you're comparing maybe a very wide and a very narrow speaker).
 
It was the re-issue I was looking at not the originals, but I'd consider the originals as I don't recall them being that bad at all.

Like I said not a critical application, TV system is where I have a bit of fun, I mean it has a Technics spectrum analyser - just for kicks. :)

RX3 is no use - it needs to be a bookshelf speaker as they have to sit on a brick plinth that's built in to the room.
The new ones seem bigger than the originals, but it's so darned long ago. The awful sound of the original 4310 (I think it was) compared to big Tannoys, IMFs and the BBC derived models has however, been burned into my memory. Such a shame that NS1000s are so expensive now used (around a grand?) as a pair of them tacked onto one of your Krells would be great I reckon :D
 
Also he rarely reviews a speaker that isn't a fairly cheap little two-way effort. I suppose his catchment is young enthusiasts on a budget so he has to play to that, but I would not rate him as highly experienced with loudspeakers.

He's reviewed floor standers, but I'm not sure why you think it's rare for him to review something other than "fairly cheap" two way efforts. Not sure exactly what your criteria is but a quick look shows Darko has reviewed:

Kii Audio Three
KEF LSX II LT
Piega Wireless Floor Standers
KEF R3 Meta
Wilson Tune Tot
Sonus Faber Duetto - ACTIVE
B&W 705 S3 (which Kal R. liked too)
Wharfedale Linton (which Erin loved)
KEF LS60
KEF KC62 subwoofer
Buchardt S400 MKII


Most of those don't strike me as "fairly cheap" two ways, but rather many are quite squarely in the range many audiophiles are considering. I'm not surprised Darko has a substantial audience as he seems to review gear within a nice range of prices and performance.


 
What I'm usually looking for in particular is the subjective impressions from users who have gotten rid of the loudspeakers I'm interested in, what the reason for that was, and if that particular aspect would be something I think would be a problem for me as well in the longer run.

Another thing I look for is if the reviewer or the user has experience with other speakers I also have experience with, how they compare the sound of those speakers, what they may think is lacking, or what they found better with one of the speakers. If I find the person's descriptions of the known speakers to be a pretty accurate description of how I perceive the sound of those speakers, I will likely put more trust in their descriptions of other speakers too. As said, the more I know of the person's taste in sound based on the description that may mirror my own experience of the same speakers, the better.

It's possible to both look at measurements and read subjective impressions to get a fairly good idea of the sound of a loudspeaker. I think both can give good initial information before I get the chance to listen to the speakers in person.

Agreed. It's not an "all or nothing" approach. I don't watch reviews like a slack jawed empty headed viewer "Everything the reviewer says is right, just tell me what to buy!" In fact most audiophiles don't. Most are pretty opinionated themselves, having experienced a range of equipment, formed their own criteria and opinions to some degree. We can look at on line content like Darkos and weed out the useful from the less useful, which often involves triangulating information from elsewhere and other reviews, to see if there are patterns supporting what the reviewer is saying.

And the fact is: there is a ton of interesting gear out there that will never appear in ASR's reviews, so if you are interested, you go where that gear is showing up too. It would be way to restrictive (for many of us) to restrict interest to only what Amir can get his hands on, or only speakers that have Klippel measurements (or reviewers who own Klippels).
 
I believe sadly that a very high percentage watch those you tube videos and believe every word without question.
And then propagate that opinion unquestioningly around the internet.
Keith
 
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