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The "other" German Speaker Manufacturers (Canton, Magnat, Heco, Quadral, ...) - Where do they stand?

Crosstalk

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Elac have a coaxial but it's only in their expensive line
View attachment 184223
coppia-di-diffusori-elac-concerto-m.jpg
yeah again , kef wins thats why I bought the R11, there is nothing which beats it under 5000. No other coaxials and no distortion like you mentioned in the other thread. I listened to Reference 3 recently and while its good, the R11 has better bass extension, and it can be easily eqed to match the Reference 3. Ability to eq makes it better than any German speaker brand. Since its available in every German hifi store, I wonder why it isnt the default choice by now. People are quite unaware about its ability still.
 

Crosstalk

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ME Geithain makes quite competent coaxials, though they may not be as perfectly computer modeled as Genelecs, they have some other pros like cardioid bass in certain models.

Biggest con is availability outside of Germany.
They are not proper coaxials., They are coaxials like car stereo speakers. I mean tweeter infront of the midwoofer. its very expensive and for that price there are lot of cheaper better speakers. Are there any distoriton graphs or geithains?
 

Sancus

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They are not proper coaxials., They are coaxials like car stereo speakers. I mean tweeter infront of the midwoofer. its very expensive and for that price there are lot of cheaper better speakers. Are there any distoriton graphs or geithains?
There's IMD/TD and max SPL at 3% THD. The performance is reasonable for the size IMO. And I mean, I don't know how anyone can call them "not proper coaxials". The on and off axis response is pretty decent. It's not Genelec level, but nothing is.
 

Crosstalk

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There's IMD/TD and max SPL at 3% THD. The performance is reasonable for the size IMO. And I mean, I don't know anyone can call them "not proper coaxials". The on and off axis response is pretty decent. It's not Genelec level, but nothing is.
Kef r11 is less than 1 percent with THD. It can be eqed to flat without any distortions. Its 5000 Euros. Geithains are way too expensive compared to it and performs worse. 3% THD is audible. I dont see any reason why it should be prefered for any reason. UniQ has better directivity.
 

Sancus

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Kef r11 is less than 1 percent with THD. It can be eqed to flat without any distortions. Its 5000 Euros. Geithains are way too expensive compared to it and performs worse. 3% THD is audible. I dont see any reason why it should be prefered for any reason. UniQ has better directivity.
At what SPL???? I haven't seen a good review of the R11, best is the NRC one but it's really lacking compared to Klippel. In any event, no Kef I've seen reviewed has any low frequency directivity control at all, they all become omni at like 400-500hz or above. So Geithain has that advantage, which can be very useful.

In any event, I'm not saying Kef is bad, they're also very good. It's all trade offs and small differences at these levels. I don't care about arguing who is better, was just pointing out another valid option.
 

Crosstalk

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At what SPL???? I haven't seen a good review of the R11, best is the NRC one but it's really lacking compared to Klippel. In any event, no Kef I've seen reviewed has any low frequency directivity control at all, they all become omni at like 400-500hz or above. So Geithain has that advantage, which can be very useful.

In any event, I'm not saying Kef is bad, they're also very good. It's all trade offs and small differences at these levels. I don't care about arguing who is better, was just pointing out another valid option.
Here is a freq vs distorion in this forum itself. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...11-quick-measurements-single-vs-bi-amp.20093/ . Can you explain a little about the low frequency directivity you mentioned here with the KEF, why it is an issue in any case? Honeslty I do not know about it. What is its significance.?
 

Sancus

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Here is a freq vs distorion in this forum itself. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...11-quick-measurements-single-vs-bi-amp.20093/ . Can you explain a little about the low frequency directivity you mentioned here with the KEF, why it is an issue in any case? Honeslty I do not know about it. What is its significance.?
In-room measurements of distortion(or anything, really) are not accurate or valid for comparison to anything outside of that room.

LF directivity control means that, instead of being omnidirectional at low frequencies, the directivity is controlled more similar to higher frequencies. You can see in the Geithain contour plot that it doesn't project a lot of LF energy to the rear and less to the sides than a typical speaker. That means SBIR effects and other room interactions will be somewhat reduced. The value of this varies based on room and amount of room treatment, but in the average domestic room it can have some significant clarity benefits from 100-1000hz.

For an example of what this can do, here's a post comparing the 8C and the Kef R3. The 8C has some of the best LF directivity out there though, it's better than that particular Geithain, but I don't know about all of them. Anyway, as you can see, the 8C is much much less affected by room induced issues, especially below 500hz.
 

BrokenEnglishGuy

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At what SPL???? I haven't seen a good review of the R11, best is the NRC one but it's really lacking compared to Klippel. In any event, no Kef I've seen reviewed has any low frequency directivity control at all, they all become omni at like 400-500hz or above. So Geithain has that advantage, which can be very useful.

In any event, I'm not saying Kef is bad, they're also very good. It's all trade offs and small differences at these levels. I don't care about arguing who is better, was just pointing out another valid option.

This thing is cardiod, but too expensive
kef-muon-storyjpg.jpg
 

Timcognito

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Elac Navis is coaxial and very good from what I read, $2k.

A bit of KEF trolling here? ASR measured seven KEF speakers. Recommendations? 2-yes and 5-no
 

Klonatans

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I wonder why there's little to no mention at all of AMT tweeter equipped Elac floorstanders like FS 247, FS 267, FS 407, FS 409 and the standmount/bookshelf BS series on Audio Science Review.
 

vert

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I don't know if the Phonar brand has been mentioned here. I have owned a Phonar AS180 sub for a few years and have been happy with its quality, I use it 90% for movie watching (I do most of my music listening at my desk these days). This has been my first sub so I'm not able to rate it (also, other than Audyssey calibration, my setup and room probably aren't optimal), but I would say it's a competent device. Phonar are a small manufacturer from northern Germany, I think they started as a contractor for Danish brands. They have a small distribution in Switzerland.

An older German-speaking colleague of mine who was a gear freak used to lend me piles of German audio magazines (although I don't know German) with page after page of reviews and reports; the enthusiasm of Germans for audio seems to have few equivalents.
 

Ilkless

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FWIW a Canton 836.2 was a very pleasant listen and built very nicely. Priced extremely fairly (around LS50 prices in my country, think the distributor has closed down) especially considering it was built in Germany.
 

Thunder22

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FWIW a Canton 836.2 was a very pleasant listen and built very nicely. Priced extremely fairly (around LS50 prices in my country, think the distributor has closed down) especially considering it was built in Germany.
I've recently sent Amirm a 826.2 for testing. They were also dirt cheap, but that was before they changed up their distributors.
 

BrokenEnglishGuy

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I wonder why there's little to no mention at all of AMT tweeter equipped Elac floorstanders like FS 247, FS 267, FS 407, FS 409 and the standmount/bookshelf BS series on Audio Science Review.
I have the measurements from fs407, I guess the 408 have even more bass extention
1644155566105.png
 

Klonatans

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I have the measurements from fs407, I guess the 408 have even more bass extention
View attachment 184603
I have the first generation FS407 (not Vela). They are definitely not bass shy, especially for their modest size. In the acoustically compromised room where they are I had to plug some foam in the down firing bass reflex ports to avoid boominess.
 

Crosstalk

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Elac Navis is coaxial and very good from what I read, $2k.

A bit of KEF trolling here? ASR measured seven KEF speakers. Recommendations? 2-yes and 5-no
With KEF R series is the one to get. Others arent that great. Navis is good, but it can be easily beaten by a KEF R7 costing 75 percent of its price. There is nothing wrong in pointing facts I think. See the distortion is high. if BrokenGuy had never showed me what to look for, I would have overlooked this spec on every speaker. Thanks to him. Most speakers fails in terms of distortion here, and thats the place were KEF R series really has an edge here.
 

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