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The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

levimax

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Inspired by the idea of using a FIR filter instead of changing cart loading (which won't work with my MC cart anyway) I created a FIR filter by "eye" in Rephase that looked like it would correct the FR of my cart according to "the script" and the STR-100 test record. It was easy and fast. I then applied the fir correction to the file I originally ran on the script with Foobar and it looks like it "worked". I can hear a subtle difference and of course I think I prefer the new FIR filter but I am sure there is bias involved. I guess it is "better" to have a flat FR response without any help from a filter but for these very subtle FR changes I am not sure a FIR filter is so bad.... it is a lot easier and cheaper than trying to find a NOS boron tube cantilever MC cart. See below original FR script, FIR filter in Rephase, and "after" FIR filter applied.


AT33PTG2_SUT_SL1310_STR100.png
prg-2a.png
AT33PTG2_SUT_SL1310_STR100+DSP.png
 

dlaloum

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Inspired by the idea of using a FIR filter instead of changing cart loading (which won't work with my MC cart anyway) I created a FIR filter by "eye" in Rephase that looked like it would correct the FR of my cart according to "the script" and the STR-100 test record. It was easy and fast. I then applied the fir correction to the file I originally ran on the script with Foobar and it looks like it "worked". I can hear a subtle difference and of course I think I prefer the new FIR filter but I am sure there is bias involved. I guess it is "better" to have a flat FR response without any help from a filter but for these very subtle FR changes I am not sure a FIR filter is so bad.... it is a lot easier and cheaper than trying to find a NOS boron tube cantilever MC cart. See below original FR script, FIR filter in Rephase, and "after" FIR filter applied.


View attachment 213528View attachment 213529View attachment 213530
I totally agree with you...

I just have not found an easy to use, user friendly, means to do this, which could enter the "family system"....

RIght now the only easy to use rendition of this is the built in phono stage on the Technics TOTL integrated amp... which comes with its own dedicated test record, and it then adjusts itself as needed.

Now if only that was available as an external phono stage!
 

Vacceo

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I don´t know if this is the right thread to ask this and it may sound incredibly stupid, but here we go:

Is it possible to plug a turntable to any RCA from an integrated or preamp? For a long, long time, I have used the phono stage of an integrated and actually, never tried to use the other RCA connectors, so I really have no idea if it can work. Are cables for turntables different from any off the shelf pair of RCA?

And last but not least: if there is no dedicated ground, where would you attach the ground cable of the turntable?
 

sergeauckland

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I don´t know if this is the right thread to ask this and it may sound incredibly stupid, but here we go:

Is it possible to plug a turntable to any RCA from an integrated or preamp? For a long, long time, I have used the phono stage of an integrated and actually, never tried to use the other RCA connectors, so I really have no idea if it can work. Are cables for turntables different from any off the shelf pair of RCA?

And last but not least: if there is no dedicated ground, where would you attach the ground cable of the turntable?
It won't work.
The signal from a turntable cartridge is low level (of the order of 300uV to 5mV) as opposed to around 2V for line sources. Furthermore, the output from an LP needs to be equalised as a record is cut with RIAA equalisation that cuts the bass and boosts the treble by something like 10:1 relative to mid frequencies. Without equalisation, the sound will be very thin with virtually zero bass, just treble.

Phono cartridges need to be plugged into a dedicated phono input which has the required sensitivity and equalisation.

As to cables, there's no real difference between 'turntable' cables and 'normal' RCAs, except that for phono use the cables should be very well screened against hum, and of low capacitance. Most decent RCA cables will do fine, but some of the cheapest might not, given that they could have poor screening. Capacitance is unlikely to be an issue.

As to the ground wire from the turntable, you can attach this to any screw on the amp's chassis in the absence of a dedicated ground point. You could even leave it unconnected and if there's no audible hum, then you're OK. However you may find that hum is excessive until you ground the cable to the amp's chassis.

S.
 

Vacceo

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So esentially it is the same connector it terms of size and shape but the electrical differences are ample, hence the need of dedicated electronics on the receiveng end of the cable. Right?

And of course, thanks for the detailed answer. :)
 

sergeauckland

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So esentially it is the same connector it terms of size and shape but the electrical differences are ample, hence the need of dedicated electronics on the receiveng end of the cable. Right?

And of course, thanks for the detailed answer. :)
Exactly. You can physically plug a turntable into any RCA input, and you won't damage anything, but the sound will be very quiet and very thin unless there's the appropriate circuitry behind that input.

S
 

dr0ss

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Yes, same connector. Your integrate or preamp might have a phono input: they used to be standard, then for a while (after turntables were considered a dead format) they disappeared, but now they've come back.
 

Newman

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Is there any science to the comparisons?
 

Angsty

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I don´t know if this is the right thread to ask this and it may sound incredibly stupid, but here we go:

Is it possible to plug a turntable to any RCA from an integrated or preamp? For a long, long time, I have used the phono stage of an integrated and actually, never tried to use the other RCA connectors, so I really have no idea if it can work. Are cables for turntables different from any off the shelf pair of RCA?

And last but not least: if there is no dedicated ground, where would you attach the ground cable of the turntable?
You can try it to see for yourself; you won’t hurt anything. The signal will be very low and distorted.
 

dlaloum

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It won't work.
The signal from a turntable cartridge is low level (of the order of 300uV to 5mV) as opposed to around 2V for line sources. Furthermore, the output from an LP needs to be equalised as a record is cut with RIAA equalisation that cuts the bass and boosts the treble by something like 10:1 relative to mid frequencies. Without equalisation, the sound will be very thin with virtually zero bass, just treble.

Phono cartridges need to be plugged into a dedicated phono input which has the required sensitivity and equalisation.

As to cables, there's no real difference between 'turntable' cables and 'normal' RCAs, except that for phono use the cables should be very well screened against hum, and of low capacitance. Most decent RCA cables will do fine, but some of the cheapest might not, given that they could have poor screening. Capacitance is unlikely to be an issue.

As to the ground wire from the turntable, you can attach this to any screw on the amp's chassis in the absence of a dedicated ground point. You could even leave it unconnected and if there's no audible hum, then you're OK. However you may find that hum is excessive until you ground the cable to the amp's chassis.

S.
I'll add a minor correction...

For MC cartridges the cables can be pretty much any standard (normal) RCA cable - as they are capacitance insensitive.

MM/MI cartridges (any of the high inductance designs in other words) - are very Capacitance sensitive. Turntables from the 70's and 80's had "captive" interconnects, and the cable used was very low capacitance, so as to ensure that the total C load at the point where it plugs into the phono stage (whether on an integrated, or on a seperate phono stage) - would be circa 100pf.

Typical "normal" RCA interconnects will have 200pf to 500pf capacitance - this can make a substantial difference to the voicing of the cartridge.

For a turntable where I had to replace the RCA cables, I used the low capacitance BlueJeans LC1 cable, and used a very short length (50cm) to keep the C down to 60pf total. - If your C is low, you can always tune your system by raising it (which can be as simple as adding a cable extension!) - but there is no way to remove C...

Capacitance is NOT an issue for MC cartridges - as they are insensitive to capacitance loading. (they respond lightly to R loading)
 

sergeauckland

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I'll add a minor correction...

For MC cartridges the cables can be pretty much any standard (normal) RCA cable - as they are capacitance insensitive.

MM/MI cartridges (any of the high inductance designs in other words) - are very Capacitance sensitive. Turntables from the 70's and 80's had "captive" interconnects, and the cable used was very low capacitance, so as to ensure that the total C load at the point where it plugs into the phono stage (whether on an integrated, or on a seperate phono stage) - would be circa 100pf.

Typical "normal" RCA interconnects will have 200pf to 500pf capacitance - this can make a substantial difference to the voicing of the cartridge.

For a turntable where I had to replace the RCA cables, I used the low capacitance BlueJeans LC1 cable, and used a very short length (50cm) to keep the C down to 60pf total. - If your C is low, you can always tune your system by raising it (which can be as simple as adding a cable extension!) - but there is no way to remove C...

Capacitance is NOT an issue for MC cartridges - as they are insensitive to capacitance loading. (they respond lightly to R loading)
You're right of course. I made some assumptions in my response for simplicity, firstly that the cables are short, secondly that relative to the OPs question, capacitance is the least of the issues, and finally, all the cables I've used for phono have been low capacitance, as I generally make up my own. 500pF seems a lot for a short coax cable, but I haven't measured commercially bought cables.

S
 

dlaloum

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You're right of course. I made some assumptions in my response for simplicity, firstly that the cables are short, secondly that relative to the OPs question, capacitance is the least of the issues, and finally, all the cables I've used for phono have been low capacitance, as I generally make up my own. 500pF seems a lot for a short coax cable, but I haven't measured commercially bought cables.

S
It was a commercial "audiophile" cable.... and it was my own ignorance that led to its inappropriate use - but you won't hear any decent advice out there from most of the cable manufacturers!! - in fact most of them don't even tell you their capacitance.
 
OP
Bob from Florida

Bob from Florida

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Had a $10 off coupon for Target which caused me to pull the trigger on some rock and roll on vinyl yesterday.

1659874382439.png


Listened to it and the Red vinyl is visually stunning. Sound quality is excellent with a very quiet background - better than some of the Acoustic Sounds stuff purchased in the last few years. If you like Queen this covers a lot of their most popular stuff.
 

mike70

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It was a commercial "audiophile" cable.... and it was my own ignorance that led to its inappropriate use - but you won't hear any decent advice out there from most of the cable manufacturers!! - in fact most of them don't even tell you their capacitance.

I had bought mogami based cables in eBay at 25 bucks ... decent rca connectors, good shielding and very low capacitance specified in the data sheet. So far so good, you don't need anything else.
 

dlaloum

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I had bought mogami based cables in eBay at 25 bucks ... decent rca connectors, good shielding and very low capacitance specified in the data sheet. So far so good, you don't need anything else.
Yes - it needn't be expensive... (Cat6 or Cat7 cable can be used too...)
 

Cote Dazur

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Just spent a lovely afternoon, comfortably seated in my listening chair. played some records, totally enjoyed myself, immersed in great sound and great music.
Just writing about it to say all those conversation about measurements, SINAD, dynamic compression, look totally out of touch at this very moment. Just wishing you all as good a time as I just had whatever media and gear you are using.
 

MattHooper

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Just spent a lovely afternoon, comfortably seated in my listening chair. played some records, totally enjoyed myself, immersed in great sound and great music.
Just writing about it to say all those conversation about measurements, SINAD, dynamic compression, look totally out of touch at this very moment. Just wishing you all as good a time as I just had whatever media and gear you are using.

Ha, I had a similar feeling last night listening to some 70's soundtracks on vinyl (good recordings).

It was utterly immersive. The sound was huge and spacious, the recorded acoustics seemed finely rendered, every instrument no matter how quiet or distant was easily discernible, cellos had beautiful rich presence, the sense of seeing right through the air to strings on bows, resonating wood bodies, tympani lit up the air and sent floor rumbling bass through the "hall" to my chair, massed trumpets sounded dense, metallic and vibrant etc. This for me is what "high end audio" is all about - providing an immersive experience and sense of luxurious sound quality that mesmerizes and keeps your butt in the seat listening...whether that's coming from a digital or analog source.

All the picky stuff on technical grounds does feel mountains-out-of-molehills in such context, when I'm listening.

(Though, it is what audiophiles do - care about things even down to small differences. I do as well, of course).
 
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