The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

[Newman]

Just spent a lovely afternoon, comfortably seated in my listening chair. played some records, totally enjoyed myself, immersed in great sound and great music.

…and I spent many an afternoon similarly as a child, link.

…and millions of people are having the same bliss this afternoon, on cheap radios, and streaming low-res through their phone’s inbuilt, um, speaker.

all those conversation about measurements, SINAD, dynamic compression, look totally out of touch at this very moment

…and yet, you, we, the young me, today’s kids with their phones, all of us, are standing on the shoulders of people who focused on those very topics for a very long time, in order to get the gear to work, indeed the whole music playback system, from gramophone to microphone to streaming, so that we can use it and call them “totally out of touch” by way of gratitude…

cheers

 

[Cote Dazur]

Though, it is what audiophiles do - care about things even down to small differences

Yes indeed they do, I did to, a long time ago and I am not looking back, it was a time of endless questioning mostly triggered by comments read in magazines, this was before internet and the forums. After loosing interest for a while, pursuing other activities, the sparks reignited after I moved to a new home about 15 years ago and realized the importance of the biggest transducer of them all, the listening room. As I now had a dedicated large space to set my speakers and gear as I fancied, I realized all I had was more than adequate to have great music enjoyment. Placing everything took trial and errors, but I have it settled for a while now. Every move of chair and speaker bringing so much more difference than this or that gear ever did, everything beside recordings thenselve which are still to me the champion of differentiator. Now that I am settled, listening to different recordings is what makes it sound different, like this afternoon, listening to the Diva soundtrack was quite an experience.
So yes audiophile tend to focus on small difference, but is it a good use of their time? Once you reach a level of performance, the diminishing return can hit very quickly, leading even to a reverse of satisfaction with their set ups, chasing a star that does not exist.

 

[Newman]

So yes audiophile tend to focus on small difference, but is it a good use of their time?

Let’s courteously ask the LP users here: is tweaking and fiddling with record players, cleaning LPs, etc, a good use of their time?

 

[sergeauckland]

Let’s courteously ask the LP users here: is tweaking and fiddling with record players, cleaning LPs, etc, a good use of their time?

Yes, better than watching television.
S

 

[MattHooper]

Yes indeed they do, I did to, a long time ago and I am not looking back, it was a time of endless questioning mostly triggered by comments read in magazines, this was before internet and the forums. After loosing interest for a while, pursuing other activities, the sparks reignited after I moved to a new home about 15 years ago and realized the importance of the biggest transducer of them all, the listening room. As I now had a dedicated large space to set my speakers and gear as I fancied, I realized all I had was more than adequate to have great music enjoyment. Placing everything took trial and errors, but I have it settled for a while now. Every move of chair and speaker bringing so much more difference than this or that gear ever did, everything beside recordings thenselve which are still to me the champion of differentiator. Now that I am settled, listening to different recordings is what makes it sound different, like this afternoon, listening to the Diva soundtrack was quite an experience.
So yes audiophile tend to focus on small difference, but is it a good use of their time? Once you reach a level of performance, the diminishing return can hit very quickly, leading even to a reverse of satisfaction with their set ups, chasing a star that does not exist.

I think that's an inherent issue in virtually anything people are passionate about - whether it's learning instruments, writing music, buying cars to fix them up, or any hobby. The things that wouldn't make a difference to others not invested make a difference to us. And depending on the individual there will be times of weariness or maybe taking obsession too far and having to pull back. But of course that all depends on how the individual is feeling about it. Is someone enjoying the tweakiness of their hobby? If so...it's part of the fun. Are they at a point where they find it too much and distracting? Time to re-set I guess.

I spent the last year or so chasing little differences in my system. I find that while they can be subtle, they can significantly impact my perception and enjoyment of the sound. So it's been fun.

 

[MattHooper]

Let’s courteously ask the LP users here: is tweaking and fiddling with record players, cleaning LPs, etc, a good use of their time?

Yes.

 

[RammisFrammis]

Let’s courteously ask the LP users here: is tweaking and fiddling with record players, cleaning LPs, etc, a good use of their time?

The Courteous Vinyl Thread? Looks confrontational to me.

 

[Cote Dazur]

I spent the last year or so chasing little differences in my system. I find that while they can be subtle, they can significantly impact my perception and enjoyment of the sound. So it's been fun.

As long as it is fun, then no problem what so ever, you are 100% correct, also on what ever anyone likes as part of the hifi hobby. My own experience is tainting my perspective, going away from the tinkering to spent more time enjoying the fruits is what is fun for me, I guess I just want to share the fun, forgetting others can be very different. Something else I need to pay more attention.
I admire people who pay attention to details, though, even if I am not one of them.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

Let’s courteously ask the LP users here: is tweaking and fiddling with record players, cleaning LPs, etc, a good use of their time?

Hi, I hope you don’t mind some more input.

I find it enjoyable, although I don’t spin as much vinyl as I used to, but I have my moments. In my case it is time to give up a couple of my prized turntables, and cartridges, and tonearms and… you get the idea. I accumulated so much stuff, that I could never use it all in six life times.

I’ve also reached a point in my setup where I don’t feel the need for more tweaks. I just spent so much time doing it in the past that it’s just time to enjoy the music. The occasional checking to make sure everything is level, and has the correct tracking force and I’m good to go.

 

[MattHooper]

When it comes to washing records that in of itself would not have been something I enjoyed...except I splurged for a Degritter ultra sonic record cleaner. It essentially allows me to drop a record in, hit a button, and come back 5 to 8 minutes later to a beautifully clean, dried record ready to play. Like many Degritter owners, I found it actually made cleaning records kind of appealing. It's just a cool machine to operate, and it's satisfying to drop a dirty or dusty record in and come back to something so clean looking it's like it came right off the presses.

 

[MattHooper]

I’ve also reached a point in my setup where I don’t feel the need for more tweaks. I just spent so much time doing it in the past that it’s just time to enjoy the music. The occasional checking to make sure everything is level, and has the correct tracking force and I’m good to go.

That's mostly where I am. I got a new cartridge about a year ago. I set it up and..voila. Been enjoying it ever since.

My phono stage allows easy access, via buttons, to different gain and impedance settings. I don't tough the gain once it's set (it's the same loudness as my digital signal), but sometimes I like to play with the impedance settings, which can alter the sound in fun ways (lower settings tend towards a darker, fatter sound, higher settings brighter, more dense and punchy).

 

[Newman]

The Courteous Vinyl Thread? Looks confrontational to me.

That would be a matter between you and @Cote Dazur who asked the question. I merely asked the group for their thoughts on his question as it would apply to the topic of this thread. I thought his question was fair and phrased with courtesy…

 

[Deleted member 50971]

That's mostly where I am. I got a new cartridge about a year ago. I set it up and..voila. Been enjoying it ever since.

My phono stage allows easy access, via buttons, to different gain and impedance settings. I don't tough the gain once it's set (it's the same loudness as my digital signal), but sometimes I like to play with the impedance settings, which can alter the sound in fun ways (lower settings tend towards a darker, fatter sound, higher settings brighter, more dense and punchy).

That sounds like a good bit of fun, and I know it’s rewarding.

I reached a certain point, where I took a step back and realized that for me it wasn’t going to get a whole lot better. The biggest change in a long time was when I went to the Parks Puffin, with its digital coax out into my DAC. Then the next one was when I got rid of the iron main platter, went with a brass platter and a moving coil cartridge. I just happen to be in the right place at the right time on eBay and got the brass platter about as reasonable as it could be in this day and age. Not that the brass has anything to do with it, it’s just non-magnetic for the moving coil. Those two things were the biggest advancements in my vinyl playback in 10 years. Where would I go from here was what I asked myself.

 

[dlaloum]

That sounds like a good bit of fun, and I know it’s rewarding.

I reached a certain point, where I took a step back and realized that for me it wasn’t going to get a whole lot better. The biggest change in a long time was when I went to the Parks Puffin, with its digital coax out into my DAC. Then the next one was when I got rid of the iron main platter, went with a brass platter and a moving coil cartridge. I just happen to be in the right place at the right time on eBay and got the brass platter about as reasonable as it could be in this day and age. Not that the brass has anything to do with it, it’s just non-magnetic for the moving coil. Those two things were the biggest advancements in my vinyl playback in 10 years. Where would I go from here was what I asked myself.

You can measure and model a cartridges performance...

I have an excel spreadsheet - which is a bit complicated to "drive" - but fundamentally it models the electrical behaviour of the cartridge (taking into account capacitance, inductance, and impedance.)

You first measure the frequency response of the cartridge/stylus/loading in real life...
Then you "deduct" the modelled response from the measured response...

The result will be the sum of all the non linearities - the biggest one is cantilever resonance(s)... but you can also have eddy current losses and other effects...

You then rerun the model, using the non linearities measure to adjust a choice of parameters (inductance, impedance, capacitance) - you can even use the spreadsheets target seeking modes, to try to find an optimal setting.

It is NOT perfect... The model clearly requires more work, and some of the non-linearities should in fact be built into the model....

BUT - it does consistently predict "the gist" of the end result.

So I can take a cartridge, measure it, use the measurement to estimate an optimal loading - adjust the loading and measure again to see where I am at!

One of the things that this sort of exercise shows up, is that with many cartridges, we walk a fine line - we can opt for a more extended frequency response - achieving perhaps +/-3db out to 20kHz - or we can opt for a much tighter F/R over a more limited range of frequencies - with a rapid rolloff thereafter - so for many cartridges you can achieve +/- 0.5 db out to 14kHz - but then a very steep rolloff after that, whereas the alternative (achieving +/-3db to 20kHz) has rises and drops.... so the cartridge definitely does not sound neutral.

You can also easily (relatively easily... ) visualise the proposed "Voicing" and see what the rises/falls in F/R will be with a specific proposed loading.

Fundamentally - in a theoretically perfect world - I see no logical reason why one wouldn't use this kind of measurement to develop the same kind of EQ we use for Speakers and Rooms to achieve desired target curves with cartridges.

Choose whether you want a neutral (flat) frequency response, or one with more presence, detail, bass.... etc...

Then one can choose the best tracking cartridge possible for your individual setup - and use the EQ to tune in your optimal "Voicing" - rather than buying megabuck cartridges to "voice" things the way you like them...

The old Carver trick of voicing an amp to sound like a different amp - is even more applicable to cartridges.... in a blind test, I doubt most people could tell two cartridges apart if they had been properly set up like this, with matched voicing.

 

[Deleted member 50971]

You can measure and model a cartridges performance...

I have an excel spreadsheet - which is a bit complicated to "drive" - but fundamentally it models the electrical behaviour of the cartridge (taking into account capacitance, inductance, and impedance.)

You first measure the frequency response of the cartridge/stylus/loading in real life...
Then you "deduct" the modelled response from the measured response...

The result will be the sum of all the non linearities - the biggest one is cantilever resonance(s)... but you can also have eddy current losses and other effects...

You then rerun the model, using the non linearities measure to adjust a choice of parameters (inductance, impedance, capacitance) - you can even use the spreadsheets target seeking modes, to try to find an optimal setting.

It is NOT perfect... The model clearly requires more work, and some of the non-linearities should in fact be built into the model....

BUT - it does consistently predict "the gist" of the end result.

So I can take a cartridge, measure it, use the measurement to estimate an optimal loading - adjust the loading and measure again to see where I am at!

One of the things that this sort of exercise shows up, is that with many cartridges, we walk a fine line - we can opt for a more extended frequency response - achieving perhaps +/-3db out to 20kHz - or we can opt for a much tighter F/R over a more limited range of frequencies - with a rapid rolloff thereafter - so for many cartridges you can achieve +/- 0.5 db out to 14kHz - but then a very steep rolloff after that, whereas the alternative (achieving +/-3db to 20kHz) has rises and drops.... so the cartridge definitely does not sound neutral.

You can also easily (relatively easily... ) visualise the proposed "Voicing" and see what the rises/falls in F/R will be with a specific proposed loading.

Fundamentally - in a theoretically perfect world - I see no logical reason why one wouldn't use this kind of measurement to develop the same kind of EQ we use for Speakers and Rooms to achieve desired target curves with cartridges.

Choose whether you want a neutral (flat) frequency response, or one with more presence, detail, bass.... etc...

Then one can choose the best tracking cartridge possible for your individual setup - and use the EQ to tune in your optimal "Voicing" - rather than buying megabuck cartridges to "voice" things the way you like them...

The old Carver trick of voicing an amp to sound like a different amp - is even more applicable to cartridges.... in a blind test, I doubt most people could tell two cartridges apart if they had been properly set up like this, with matched voicing.

Very interesting indeed.

 

[MattHooper]

That sounds like a good bit of fun, and I know it’s rewarding.

I reached a certain point, where I took a step back and realized that for me it wasn’t going to get a whole lot better. The biggest change in a long time was when I went to the Parks Puffin, with its digital coax out into my DAC. Then the next one was when I got rid of the iron main platter, went with a brass platter and a moving coil cartridge. I just happen to be in the right place at the right time on eBay and got the brass platter about as reasonable as it could be in this day and age. Not that the brass has anything to do with it, it’s just non-magnetic for the moving coil. Those two things were the biggest advancements in my vinyl playback in 10 years. Where would I go from here was what I asked myself.

I started with a micro seiki turntable given to me long ago by my father-in-law (which replaced an older, crappier one). It wasn't convenient to have it in my system so I'd only put it in sometimes when I wanted to spin some of my old records that I'd been too sentimental (or lazy) to part with. It was definitely nostalgic, though I also took notice that sometimes the sound was wonderful, different then my digital, but in it's own way engaging. Though still lower-fi.

Once I'd bought lots of new vinyl I wanted to upgrade my vinyl playback system. I did my newbie research, such as it was, and inspired by how much better my vinyl-oriented friend's records sounded (he had a VPI turntable, nice arm/cartridge) I was headed towards a likely purchase of a VPI table. But an amazing deal (considering MSRP) came up for a Transrotor Fat Bob S turntable with a high end arm and cartridge. It was something of a Hail Mary to purchase it, but the deal was good enough that I could sell without a loss if it didn't work out.

It sounded to me like a wonderful upgrade all around - I'd never heard records sound better. Combined with the aesthetics I have been very happy with the purchase and feel no desire to look for other turntables. Often once I really like something I keep it for a long time.
I've had my amps, for instance, for over 20 years.

 

[levimax]

You can measure and model a cartridges performance...

I have an excel spreadsheet - which is a bit complicated to "drive" - but fundamentally it models the electrical behaviour of the cartridge (taking into account capacitance, inductance, and impedance.)

You first measure the frequency response of the cartridge/stylus/loading in real life...
Then you "deduct" the modelled response from the measured response...

The result will be the sum of all the non linearities - the biggest one is cantilever resonance(s)... but you can also have eddy current losses and other effects...

You then rerun the model, using the non linearities measure to adjust a choice of parameters (inductance, impedance, capacitance) - you can even use the spreadsheets target seeking modes, to try to find an optimal setting.

It is NOT perfect... The model clearly requires more work, and some of the non-linearities should in fact be built into the model....

BUT - it does consistently predict "the gist" of the end result.

So I can take a cartridge, measure it, use the measurement to estimate an optimal loading - adjust the loading and measure again to see where I am at!

One of the things that this sort of exercise shows up, is that with many cartridges, we walk a fine line - we can opt for a more extended frequency response - achieving perhaps +/-3db out to 20kHz - or we can opt for a much tighter F/R over a more limited range of frequencies - with a rapid rolloff thereafter - so for many cartridges you can achieve +/- 0.5 db out to 14kHz - but then a very steep rolloff after that, whereas the alternative (achieving +/-3db to 20kHz) has rises and drops.... so the cartridge definitely does not sound neutral.

You can also easily (relatively easily... ) visualise the proposed "Voicing" and see what the rises/falls in F/R will be with a specific proposed loading.

Fundamentally - in a theoretically perfect world - I see no logical reason why one wouldn't use this kind of measurement to develop the same kind of EQ we use for Speakers and Rooms to achieve desired target curves with cartridges.

Choose whether you want a neutral (flat) frequency response, or one with more presence, detail, bass.... etc...

Then one can choose the best tracking cartridge possible for your individual setup - and use the EQ to tune in your optimal "Voicing" - rather than buying megabuck cartridges to "voice" things the way you like them...

The old Carver trick of voicing an amp to sound like a different amp - is even more applicable to cartridges.... in a blind test, I doubt most people could tell two cartridges apart if they had been properly set up like this, with matched voicing.

Over on the MC vs MM thread you can pick up some software created by a member that measures FR and distortion of your Arm / Cart / TT using a test record. My system is a little non standard in that the cart is wired balanced to a SUT and then to a balanced transmitter (customized to present the correct 47 K load) then directly to an ADC. RIAA is done using FIR filters which makes adding another FIR filter to correct FR very easy. See below original measurement, which isn't bad, and then with a FIR filter to correct the FR. Not a huge difference but I think it is the best my TT has sounded. If "colored sound" was what you wanted that would be easy as well .... but you would have to know what you wanted besides "flat". If I want non flat I have tone controls for that.

 

[dlaloum]

Over on the MC vs MM thread you can pick up some software created by a member that measures FR and distortion of your Arm / Cart / TT using a test record. My system is a little non standard in that the cart is wired balanced to a SUT and then to a balanced transmitter (customized to present the correct 47 K load) then directly to an ADC. RIAA is done using FIR filters which makes adding another FIR filter to correct FR very easy. See below original measurement, which isn't bad, and then with a FIR filter to correct the FR. Not a huge difference but I think it is the best my TT has sounded. If "colored sound" was what you wanted that would be easy as well .... but you would have to know what you wanted besides "flat". If I want non flat I have tone controls for that.



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Yep - Violent agreement here!

I saw your earlier posting of this... I target as flat as possible F/R - but there are compromises required when adjusting using loading.

If you are going into the Digital EQ realm... (as you have) - the your target in the analog EQ can be quite different - you would not target a perfect flat response, rather you would aim to get as much extension as possible, while keeping the overall response relatively flat, in the knowledge that subsequent application of filters can then iron out the couple of db down and up in various spots that result from it!

I wouldn't want the analog loading to result in a steep -20db+ result at 20kHz - which happens with some of the loadings which also result in very flat / neutral response up to 14kHz.... then it drops off a cliff!!

The other thing I would note is that most of the non-linearities that we are trying to correct for, are minimum phase and respond symmetrically to EQ... ie: if you EQ them to flat - you will correct the phase as well. I am speaking here of the major "gross" effects, discussions a decade or so ago, with a physicist, involved him pointing out that some aspects of the overall system, are mixed phase - making perfection a whole lot more difficult to achieve, without some fairly specialised analysis etc.... and the mixed phase effects, are likely to be orders of magnitude smaller, than the minimum phase ones... so for the sake of expediency, and in the belief that the end results would be audibly indistinguishable.... I have stuck with minimum phase.

So if you are going to apply digital filters to EQ to flat (and yeah, I think this is the way to go!) - then you should use minimum phase filters, rather than linear phase... - If your base F/R without EQ is already close to the target (ie: you are not trying to apply +/-10db or more of EQ anywhere), then the phase issues may well be completely academic.... but the theoretical reason for using minimum phase if available is still there.

I just wish that phono stages like the Puffin, had some way built in to interact with them and analyse/apply this kind of EQ....

 

[Deleted member 50971]

Over on the MC vs MM thread you can pick up some software created by a member that measures FR and distortion of your Arm / Cart / TT using a test record. My system is a little non standard in that the cart is wired balanced to a SUT and then to a balanced transmitter (customized to present the correct 47 K load) then directly to an ADC. RIAA is done using FIR filters which makes adding another FIR filter to correct FR very easy. See below original measurement, which isn't bad, and then with a FIR filter to correct the FR. Not a huge difference but I think it is the best my TT has sounded. If "colored sound" was what you wanted that would be easy as well .... but you would have to know what you wanted besides "flat". If I want non flat I have tone controls for that.



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Hi. Wouldn’t that all go out the window as soon as we switch to another record?

 

[dlaloum]

Hi. Wouldn’t that all go out the window as soon as we switch to another record?

No, not at all - what you are doing is setting your cartridge up to reproduce the recording in a neutral manner - ie: not adding or detracting anything.

Then whatever record you play, you get as close as possible to the original recorded material reproduced. - ie: the very definition of High Fidelity

There is another set of EQ in the system, which is RIAA (or similar, depending on period of the recording/pressing, and location) - which was not part of the discussion... but that is more a matter of "decoding" the record - and the EQ and Loading we are discussing here is layered on top of that.