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The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

BDWoody

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I don't - don't have a V15V-P so I've never played with it. I *may* have read somewhere at some point that the VN5MR can be modified to fit, or I may have just made that up. May be worth a google canoe trip or two to find out.

I'm more in to finding original styli for the vintage gems that I have, and some day Dr. Elastomer (@SIY) and I will get together on bringing the perished ones back to life.

Yes, the VN5MR is the suggested replacement, but not a lot of detail, and I'm not sure how that brush figures in. The VN5P is the original replacement, which seems close to unobtanium, and I'm not sure how those old suspensions hold up over the decades if I do find one (before you do...).
 

JP

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Yes, the VN5MR is the suggested replacement, but not a lot of detail, and I'm not sure how that brush figures in. The VN5P is the original replacement, which seems close to unobtanium, and I'm not sure how those old suspensions hold up over the decades if I do find one (before you do...).

Nah I've 13 VN5MR including a VNSE5MR and an ULTRA500S, so I'm not really buying them anymore unless I see a really good deal. You're relatively safe from me. Funny, at one point I and a couple others with similar interests would call dibs when something came up so we didn't bid against each other. Worked quite well while it lasted.

Most of the mid-to-late 80's VN5 types that I've tried didn't have overt suspension issues. Those are super easy to work on, once someone knows what material suits best.
 

dlaloum

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While it may be the best, the SAS is a dumpster fire on the V15V, IMO.
For the SAS on V15V bodies - you say my postings of custom loadings - it requires custom loading to get close to its potential

Without that custom loading .... you might as well be randomly fiddling with a 5 channel equaliser
For the most part MCs are anything but flat. Even Technics with the 305MCMK2 that came out at the same time as the 100CMK4 isn’t there. Sure, they exist, but few and far between IME.

I was being diplomatic....

I would refer you to the Dynavector Ruby/Karat series - I have one, it is quite remarkable

I know some people will find the next paragraph difficult but:

Once we accept that cartridge loading is mostly cartridge EQ - and we therefore accept that EQ is a fundamental and necessary part of optimising a vinyl setup - then we can get progress.... and that means an optimised phono stage ADC - possibly with some EQ before the ADC to move the dynamic range which varies by frequency, into an optimal frequency spectrum for digitisation - followed by a fully digital EQ stage that applies both RIAA and cartridge EQ - same as we do for speakers...

Once you have taken these steps - all you need from the cartridge and stylus is a good reading of the walls of the track - with minimisation of added artifacts (tonearm/compliance resonance, cantilever mass resonance, cartridge generator eddy currents, etc...) - flatness of frequency response becomes a non-issue - you want sufficient signal to be able to work with it - you don't want your signal to be more than say 15db +/- from your reference 1khz tone (as that makes ADC & EQ dynamic range more complicated) - and you then EQ the same way you would with a speaker (which is the other component that cartridges most resemble technically)

So for my ideal generator - I would pick a cartridge body with relatively low mass (not too heavy) - good ease of mounting - and as many laminations as possible of the MM generator core (to minimise eddy currents).
Shure V15V is good (so is the V15IV, and the p-mount V15 variants) - laminated core.
The AT upper models AT150, AT15/20 are excellent, also laminated cores - but getting good styli for them can be variable (Jico is clearly in some sort of non-competition agreement with AT!)

Some of the other classic cartridges are in this category too - eg: JVC Z series (for which SAS is available!), with some of the other vintage brands that are long out of production, it is hard to find out details of their design / manufacture - such as whether the core was laminated - so even if great styli are available - it is hard to tell whether they are top grade contenders.

I have also found some variability in SAS styli - with one stylus having a resonance around 14kHz and another around 16kHz - in theory a high quality exotic should have its resonance above 20kHz (preferably above 30kHz) - I believe that resonance to be not the primary cantilever resonance, but something relating to the tension wire & suspension at the rear... but that is pure guesswork.

Or, bite the bullet, and get a truly great design from the golden age, that is still in production today - the B&O MMC Series... now known as the SMMC series from Soundsmith.... (and their various "audiophile" upmarket blinged up versions) - at a price :( .

P.S. when I jumped aboard the SAS bandwagon, I was picking them up at around US$160 - they are now twice that price.... so where I originally "pushed" them as a fantastic value top performance stylus (for those willing to do the work in EQ) - they are now decent value - but not stunning the way they were 10 years ago.
 

dlaloum

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OT, but do you have a recommendation for a replacement stylus for the Shure V15V-P? Trying to get my limited stable of P-mounts as tuned up as I can.

My main V15V body that I use regularly is a V15Vp - and I fit the Jico SAS VN5MR stylus to it.

With the one proviso that it needs custom loading for best results.... around 600pf capacitance with 26k resistance - that will give you within +/- 1db to 20kHz... 550pf and 22k will be even flatter (+/- 0.5db ) to 16kHz - then drop down to -3db @ 20kHz.

If you go for one of the Shure V bottom P-mounts from the M series - the body has much higher inductance - which means you need less capacitance - and they match the SAS with a much more "normal" loading.

The Me75p with a N97xE-SAS fitted - Gets pretty close to optimal at 400pf and 47k Very flat until it rises to +1db at 12kHz drops back of 0 at 15kHz, then drops steeply to -5db @ 20Khz - given that it is within +/- 1 db out to around 17kHz - that is quite an excellent showing
A 1000e (another M series p mount) - with the N97xE fitted achieved best results at C=110pf R=65k (+/- 0.25db to 17kHz then -2db @ 20kHz)

If you tell me what you have in your "stable" I will see what measurements I have in terms of optimisation - I have quite a few different p-mounts
 

dlaloum

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Nah I've 13 VN5MR including a VNSE5MR and an ULTRA500S, so I'm not really buying them anymore unless I see a really good deal. You're relatively safe from me. Funny, at one point I and a couple others with similar interests would call dibs when something came up so we didn't bid against each other. Worked quite well while it lasted.

Most of the mid-to-late 80's VN5 types that I've tried didn't have overt suspension issues. Those are super easy to work on, once someone knows what material suits best.
I have an ultra400 never managed to score a 500...
 

dlaloum

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Yes, the VN5MR is the suggested replacement, but not a lot of detail, and I'm not sure how that brush figures in. The VN5P is the original replacement, which seems close to unobtanium, and I'm not sure how those old suspensions hold up over the decades if I do find one (before you do...).

The Brush on the Jico's is a lot lighter than the originals - and does a heck of a lot less damping... (some people have added a dab of grease in the hinge to try to get it damping better - I have not bothered) - the brush cancels out the added mass pretty much spot on so it plugs straight into a p-mount without needing further adjustment.

Keeping in mind the versions I have were purchased circa 10 years ago - so if they have changed their design/construction all bets are off!

The Shure originals don't seem to suffer from suspension degradation (unlike the Technics styli)

If you can get a NOS VN5 original grab it - they really are excellent. (whether they are value nowadays at some of the excessive prices is a different question ... )
 

levimax

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Nice to follow a constructive vinyl playback thread. I am on board with the cart to ADC concept and have been doing this for several years now including "digital RIAA". I also have gotten the "FR script" working and was going to start trying FR fine tuning via FIR filter but I am not sure about how accurate my STR-100 test record really is. I certainly notice consistent issues with almost all FR posted results. I remember reading something about someone, @JP maybe, working on "test record compensation" but I can't find it now. Has anyone come up with a STR-100 test record FR correction?
 

JP

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For the SAS on V15V bodies - you say my postings of custom loadings - it requires custom loading to get close to its potential

Without that custom loading .... you might as well be randomly fiddling with a 5 channel equaliser
There's no loading that gets the SAS anywhere near the FR of the original.

I would refer you to the Dynavector Ruby/Karat series - I have one, it is quite remarkable

Sure. The point was that one or two or three != most.
 

dlaloum

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There's no loading that gets the SAS anywhere near the FR of the original.

I am not arguing that! - The original is superb... an order of magnitude better - but the SAS is damn good - and when I bought it, fantastic value for money.

Even at its current pricing, there is not much out there that gets close to it in terms of value for money performance.
 

Angsty

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I've got a shot at scoring a lightly used Ortofon Quintet Bronze at a real bargain price for my VPI Traveler. Any Bronze fans out there? Should I go for it?

I currently use a Hana SL that I *love* on the VPI Traveler. I love it so much, that I was seeking another discounted SL as a replacement for when I need to re-tip. But, the price on the Quintet Bronze from a friend snapped my attention. May choose to pick it as my back-up instead. Have a couple days to decide.

Edit: No need to reply - the cartridge is no longer available.
 
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dlaloum

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We’ll not agree on that. The FR tanks it.
Well, I will say this - the FR quoted by Shure for a new V15VxMR was quoted at +1db/-4db - this is achievable today with a SAS (with appropriate loading)
 

JP

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Well, I will say this - the FR quoted by Shure for a new V15VxMR was quoted at +1db/-4db - this is achievable today with a SAS (with appropriate loading)
We're not talking about the xMR. I'll refrain until the goal posts stop moving.
 

dlaloum

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We're not talking about the xMR. I'll refrain until the goal posts stop moving.
The V15VMR - Shure materials only provide a "chart" without actual measurements on the chart.... so there isn't a "spec" to refer to.

The xMR is the same cantilever/stylus - with a body from the M series (at least in terms of the stylus fitting) - I am not sure whether the generator core was laminated or not.
 

dlaloum

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We're not talking about the xMR. I'll refrain until the goal posts stop moving.
Ahah - found the specs....... for the V15V

in this vintage article:

Specifically:
The frequency-response limits of the cartridge are specified as ± 1 dB from 20 to 8.000 Hz, gradually increasing to ± 2 dB at 20.000 Hz

I do measurably better than that with a V15V body and Jico SAS stylus - achieving +/- 1db to 20kHz (600pf/26k)
And if I am willing to sacrifice a bit of high end rolloff - +/-0.5Hz to 16kHz and a -3db rolloff at 20kHz (which I personally consider the better option), using 550pf and 22k.
 

dlaloum

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Ahah - found the specs....... for the V15V

in this vintage article:

Specifically:
The frequency-response limits of the cartridge are specified as ± 1 dB from 20 to 8.000 Hz, gradually increasing to ± 2 dB at 20.000 Hz

I do measurably better than that with a V15V body and Jico SAS stylus - achieving +/- 1db to 20kHz (600pf/26k)
And if I am willing to sacrifice a bit of high end rolloff - +/-0.5Hz to 16kHz and a -3db rolloff at 20kHz (which I personally consider the better option), using 550pf and 22k.
P.S. there is some variability to the Inductance and impedance of the bodies, and within the bodies, to the L & R channels - if you can get several bodies, it can be worthwhile to measure them and triage them to get the best matched one possible (with regard to left/right matching)

Shure did it themselves - hence the Ultra-500 cartridge.... a hand picked version of the V15V cartridge... and same with the styli...

Audio Technica did the same with things like the AT15 / AT20 and their "Signet" cartridges vs their AT cartridges...

But like any such "hand picking" situation - once they have enough of the premium model for the market - the rest get let through - and there are plenty of good bodies (on a par with the Ultra's) in among the V15V's and V15Vp's
 

JP

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Ahah - found the specs....... for the V15V

in this vintage article:

Specifically:
The frequency-response limits of the cartridge are specified as ± 1 dB from 20 to 8.000 Hz, gradually increasing to ± 2 dB at 20.000 Hz

I do measurably better than that with a V15V body and Jico SAS stylus - achieving +/- 1db to 20kHz (600pf/26k)
And if I am willing to sacrifice a bit of high end rolloff - +/-0.5Hz to 16kHz and a -3db rolloff at 20kHz (which I personally consider the better option), using 550pf and 22k.
What test record?
 

JP

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Those were the specs that Shure quoted to the reviewer.... not the tested results...
Sorry if it wasn't clear - what test record did you use in obtaining your claimed results?
 

dlaloum

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Sorry if it wasn't clear - what test record did you use in obtaining your claimed results?
I used various - but HFN pink noise is a favourite - I run it at 45rpm rather than 33 - and adjust the EQ to compensate - that moves the suspect part of that pink noise curve outside the audible range.

I also ran the Denon spot and sweep test records - much more reliable, but also more work in terms of conversion into my model/comparison spreadsheet - I would have to go back and look for the specific record details - all those measurements were made about 8 to 10 years ago.
Using the Denon Spots and sweeps helped me to get the HFN pink noise measurements calibrated (important as the Denon's are not easily replaceable whereas the HFN record is!) - I also have some of the CBS spots and sweeps (always worthwhile cross-checking!)
 
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