The Courteous Vinyl Playback Discussion

[Cote Dazur]

I have been using one of those for years

I do not have an issue with click and pops, not that it never occurs, but it occurs so rarely that it does not interfere.
I also use no. 102 anti static sleeve when the record is clean.

 

[mike70]

For me, the best price / performance inner sleeves are the Clear bags.
Perfect fit, good thickness (3.5 mil), with lip for easy manipulation, made of HDPE ... and 100 sleeves for 25 bucks.

 

[Soniclife]

I also use no. 102 anti static sleeve

I have all my vinyl in these, it's the only fussy thing I do with vinyl, they seem to work like magic.

 

[Newman]

Thanks for the insight. Your reply is a great example of the kind of discussion I was hoping for by starting this thread.

I went back and edited my last post to make sure everyone understands the text in red are Fremer’s words from the link provided. Any differences I have heard after demagnetizing a cartridge - not sure it was as pronounced as Fremer described.

I also have heard about demagnetizing the entire record and that seems a stretch. Your suggestion for a “control” is well received. What I can do is run multiple spectrum captures before and after demagnetizing starting with cleaning the record on the vacuum record cleaning machine. If it is just “random” perhaps it will show. If it is a real change then that should show also. Curiosity on my part is what is driving this and I really only have one shot at this without waiting “months” to try again. So, I best try to make it as good as possible.

Thanks for being willing to have a go at this. I have a couple of questions though.

Is this a phenomenon for MC only, or is it equally applicable to MM? [edit: reading post #38 I see you have used it for MM.] I suspect it would apply to MM too. Are you going to test both?

It would be important to control for false attribution, ie measuring a difference and assuming it was because the coil was magnetized and has now been demagnetized. So,...

• how can one determine if the coils are magnetized before demagnetizing?
• how can one determine if the (any) measured change is not due to the magnet being partially demagnetized, ie the change has made things worse?

The concern being, as you can see, that the tool could be doing more harm than good, or even doing only harm.

One way to control for false attribution, I think, for a MM cart with removable stylus, would be to remove the stylus, including magnet, and apply the tool to body only.

cheers

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

A very good method to determine a buildup of residual magnetism is to monitor the 2nd harmonic distortion on a FFT (REW has one); as magnetism builds up, this distortion will increase. This is also the method to determine if magnetism is building up on an analog tape record or playback head.

The distortion of vinyl should be around 0.6% or less with a 1kHz reference tone on a test disc. If the distortion is at this level or below on both channels, there is no residual magnetism.

 

[Newman]

A J van den Hul wrote the following about phono cartridge demagnetization:-

“NEVER demagnetize a M.M. cartridge with the replaceable stylus still inserted. It will ruin the mini-magnet at the end of the cantilever in its magnetic power. With the stylus insert removed you can consider it, but…from a more theoretical point of view, I think it is not wise to demagnetize. It is a short term effect with more negative side effects on the long-term. Your first experience will be very positive as also was mine. But after 2 record sides you have to do this again and it never stops. So you have become a serious victim. And keep in mind: the original cartridge magnet already puts the tiny armature in such a strong magnetic field that its magnetization is unavoidable, so why should you demagnetize? Also, since the magnet never is perfectly at center position but always has some offset, the mu-metal made centre of the coil system always holds residual magnetism and can’t become demagnetized. And if this is not enough: The current through the 20 micron thin coil wire is so small that there is no chance to build up any serious magnetic field to cancel the existing residual magnetism. What it only does is breaking down the magnetic domain boundaries in the mu-metal. This improves the magnetic resolution of the music. But after a short while these boundaries will be there again and the number of atoms per magnetic domain has only got bigger. So the magnetic resolution is worsening instead of getting better. So from the point of view: “I bought the thing and now I will use it”, you have to use it. The only advantage is that some crystal boundaries inside the coil wires are welded. But as soon as you move the armature by playing your records that effect is over again. So save the money and buy some good records.”

(my emphasis)

He lists the topic in his FAQ index as “Demagnetizing: DON’T!”

cheers

 

[Bob from Florida]

Thanks for being willing to have a go at this. I have a couple of questions though.

Is this a phenomenon for MC only, or is it equally applicable to MM? [edit: reading post #38 I see you have used it for MM.] I suspect it would apply to MM too. Are you going to test both?

It would be important to control for false attribution, ie measuring a difference and assuming it was because the coil was magnetized and has now been demagnetized. So,...

• how can one determine if the coils are magnetized before demagnetizing?
• how can one determine if the (any) measured change is not due to the magnet being partially demagnetized, ie the change has made things worse?

The concern being, as you can see, that the tool could be doing more harm than good, or even doing only harm.

One way to control for false attribution, I think, for a MM cart with removable stylus, would be to remove the stylus, including magnet, and apply the tool to body only.

cheers

I guess I should have been more clear about my MM use. That actually meant since I was using a MM for awhile I did not use the demagnetizer due to using a MM. You could use the demagnetizer on a MM if the stylus was removable, which in my case was not removable - Clearaudio Maestro 2. The last cartridge I used the demagnetizer on was my Denon 103.
I will only be testing on the Hana SL. My testing is going to be limited in nature due to using only the tools I have on hand - spectrum analyzer app on iPhone. Useful results depend on placement relative to the speaker and volume of playback - neither can change once testing begins. This will only show a “relative“ difference between before and after demagnetizing with enough samples collected to rule out differences in playbacks. This may not show anything useful due to the inconsistencies of record playback - as amir pointed out. Even if it does show something, someone else still would need to duplicate the results - no “final word” illusions here.

The coils cannot become magnetized - copper, silver, or gold wire is non-ferrous. So, this is only a possibility if the “iron cross” is used for the coil to be wound on. A cartridge just “sitting around” would allow the core to attain some magnetism which could interfere with cantilever motion. It would seem you would have to demagnetize first before taking a measurement with a high quality ADC with 96 by 24 capture for a spectrum analysis then capture again later after presumably enough time has passed to become magnetized sufficiently to create an audible issue. Playback of music itself would do some ”flux busting“ as well. Cardas - if memory serves - has a track on their test record that is supposed to do just that. Thinking about it this way gives rise to the idea that infrequent users of their turntable with MC may benefit from more from demagnetizer use than someone playing records daily. This gets complicated the more you dig into it…

Your other question about reduced magnetism of the pole magnets - I don’t think that is remotely a possibility. The currents required to generate a magnetic field strong enough to demagnetize the pole magnets would likely damage the coils - think open coils. If one wanted to verify that possibility one would need to measure the field strength of the magnetic field with a magnetometer before and after. Alternatively the voltage level of a 1KHZ playback track could be compared before and after to look for voltage level variations. Multiple samples before and after for an averaged result would seem prudent.

 

[JP]

So, this is only a possibility if the “iron cross” is used for the coil to be wound on.

Considering the strength of the magnet and distances from the pole pieces, does it seem at all likely that any MC coil former is actually made of a ferrous material?

 

[Bob from Florida]

Considering the strength of the magnet and distances from the pole pieces, does it seem at all likely that any MC coil former is actually made of a ferrous material?

From post 20.


Description of a Rega MC cartridge below.
Notice the use "iron cross" for the coils. The benefit is increased voltage output due to higher inductance without additional turns of wire.

ANIA PRO NEW​

The latest member of our Rega MC cartridge range the Ania Pro uses our advanced Vital profile nude diamond stylus. This profile is designed to extract as much detail from the vinyl surface as possible. The Ania Pro delivers tight bass warm mid-ranges and accurate top end frequencies to offer a well balanced and detailed performance.

Listen like a Pro​

Using our unique hand-wound micro coil found in the rest of the MC range, the Ania Pro is housed in a unique PPS highly rigid body, ensuring accurate construction and Rega’s three point fixing method which offers the optimum connection to the head-shell while automatically setting overhang. The new body is protected by a CAD designed, red rigid cover to protect the internal fine wires, making handling when fitting, safe and risk free.The Ania Pro features a super high-powered, neodymium magnet and a coil meticulously hand wound on to an iron micro cross. This miniature assembly allows us greater freedom to track the vinyl groove guaranteeing even more detail is extracted from the vinyl. All of these features combine to deliver a balanced and dynamic performance that will engage you with your vinyl like never before. The Ania Pro is the perfect partner for the Planar 3, Planar 6 or Planar 8 turntable and a factory fitted option is available for both Planar 6 and Planar 8. Please ask your retailer for details.

KEY FEATURES​

• Vital profile nude diamond
• Aluminium tapered cantilever
• Iron micro cross assembly
• One of the worlds smallest MC generators
• Cutting edge high power Neodymium magnets
• Coil constructed from 0.018 mm fine wire
• Lifetime warranty against manufacture defects

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

My testing is going to be limited in nature due to using only the tools I have on hand - spectrum analyzer app on iPhone.

You are unlikely to yield technically useful results by looking at the output via a speaker and an iPhone app. I mentioned this previously, but apparently it wasn't picked up on - the most useful method of determining residual magnetism is to use a FFT (real time analyzer or spectrum analyzer) and looking directly and electrically at the distortion products of a 1kHz tone from a test LP. An increase of residual magnetism will cause a DC shift in the output, which is detected as increased even order harmonic distortion, especially the 2nd harmonic. Doing this test acoustically is kind of useless since speakers produce higher amounts of even order distortion naturally, and this is likely to swamp any valid readings.

 

[JP]

Doing this test acoustically is kind of useless since speakers produce higher amounts of even order distortion naturally, and this is likely to swamp any valid readings.

I mentioned that as well. Seems this is more for fun than to actually test anything at all.

 

[Bob from Florida]

You are unlikely to yield technically useful results by looking at the output via a speaker and an iPhone app. I mentioned this previously, but apparently it wasn't picked up on - the most useful method of determining residual magnetism is to use a FFT (real time analyzer or spectrum analyzer) and looking directly and electrically at the distortion products of a 1kHz tone from a test LP. An increase of residual magnetism will cause a DC shift in the output, which is detected as increased even order harmonic distortion, especially the 2nd harmonic. Doing this test acoustically is kind of useless since speakers produce higher amounts of even order distortion naturally, and this is likely to swamp any valid readings.

The theory I am testing is "if I can hear a difference, I should be able to see a difference in the capture plots from the microphone". I don't currently have the gear on hand to test electrically. I do have a way to check it audibly for differences in the plots. I have to disagree about checking it at the speaker outputs. The speaker has be able to reproduce the differences despite the distortions the speaker introduces, otherwise we wouldn't hear it anyway.

 

[JP]

From post 20.


Description of a Rega MC cartridge below.
Notice the use "iron cross" for the coils. The benefit is increased voltage output due to higher inductance without additional turns of wire.

ANIA PRO NEW​

The latest member of our Rega MC cartridge range the Ania Pro uses our advanced Vital profile nude diamond stylus. This profile is designed to extract as much detail from the vinyl surface as possible. The Ania Pro delivers tight bass warm mid-ranges and accurate top end frequencies to offer a well balanced and detailed performance.

Listen like a Pro​

Using our unique hand-wound micro coil found in the rest of the MC range, the Ania Pro is housed in a unique PPS highly rigid body, ensuring accurate construction and Rega’s three point fixing method which offers the optimum connection to the head-shell while automatically setting overhang. The new body is protected by a CAD designed, red rigid cover to protect the internal fine wires, making handling when fitting, safe and risk free.The Ania Pro features a super high-powered, neodymium magnet and a coil meticulously hand wound on to an iron micro cross. This miniature assembly allows us greater freedom to track the vinyl groove guaranteeing even more detail is extracted from the vinyl. All of these features combine to deliver a balanced and dynamic performance that will engage you with your vinyl like never before. The Ania Pro is the perfect partner for the Planar 3, Planar 6 or Planar 8 turntable and a factory fitted option is available for both Planar 6 and Planar 8. Please ask your retailer for details.

KEY FEATURES​

• Vital profile nude diamond
• Aluminium tapered cantilever
• Iron micro cross assembly
• One of the worlds smallest MC generators
• Cutting edge high power Neodymium magnets
• Coil constructed from 0.018 mm fine wire
• Lifetime warranty against manufacture defects

I don’t take marketing literature as gospel.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

I have to disagree about checking it at the speaker outputs. The speaker has be able to reproduce the differences despite the distortions the speaker introduces, otherwise we wouldn't hear it anyway.

You can certainly go ahead and do it that way, but that still doesn't alter the reality that the way you're doing the test is not going to prove a whole lot, at least enough to be scientifically valid and reliable. Even though the ear can hear a difference, that doesn't mean that an app on a phone picking up from a speaker (with room acoustics not doing you any favors) is going to be sensitive enough to show anything valid. There are likely to be run-to-run variations which are going to be larger than the actual distortion differences.

 

[Newman]

An increase of residual magnetism will cause a DC shift in the output,

I don’t think we will ever get DC in the output. It’s an AC phenomenon, where the magnetic field has to be changing. (And if there was DC, we could measure it with a multimeter, even without playing music. Try that, @Bob from Florida.)

cheers

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

I don’t think we will ever get DC in the output. It’s an AC phenomenon, where the magnetic field has to be changing. (And if there was DC, we could measure it with a multimeter, even without playing music. Try that, @Bob from Florida.)

cheers

I didn't mean literally DC on the output, although there is a shift from the zero operating point during signal. Generation of even order harmonics causes a DC shift but this is not something that can be measured statically by a multimeter for instance. It will show up as higher 2nd harmonic distortion.

As I mentioned before, residual magnetism on the playback and record heads of an analog tape machine will cause an increase of 2nd harmonic distortion also, but it is easier to spot with tape since the recording process is balanced in nature and should have no even order harmonics if everything is operating properly and the bias oscillator is symmetrical.

 

[Newman]

But magnetization of iron occurs almost immediately upon exposure to a magnet. So, we can demagnetize the armature that the coil is wound onto, but it will be magnetized again very quickly, because it is not removed from the fixed magnetic field.

I think this is a point A J van den Hul was making, where I quoted him in post #46: “the mu-metal made centre of the coil system always holds residual magnetism and can’t become demagnetized”.

cheers

 

[restorer-john]

I don’t take marketing literature as gospel.

There's always the Rega factory tour, showing the iron cross being wound for those doubters...

 

[JP]

There's always the Rega factory tour showing the iron cross being wound for those doubters...

Does it tell me exactly what the material is?

 

[Newman]

Does it tell me exactly what the material is?

Aside from Rega’s marketing, note how A J van den Hul refers to the armature as mu-metal, which is an iron-nickel alloy and is ferro-magnetic. This is standard practice, and amplifies the induced voltage from the tiny coil. Alternatives like the air cored example mentioned in an earlier post, would be rare.