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Surround Processor Recommendation for Genelec! Yamaha Vs Denon Vs Canton Smart Connect.

OP
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I spoke to the IOTAVX owner - a very nice gentleman. He is very honest about what his product delivers for the price and he is aware of ASR. In the mean time, I saw some Facebook reviews and YouTube reviews. There is a you tube sound comparison between Tonewinner AT-300 Vs Marantz 7706 to only get an idea (of course no one can judge based on YT videos as you hear your gear :)).

After some thought through (with Denon 3700/4700/ Marantz 6015 out of stock, 5200 big for my lowboard and preferring Balanced output compared to RCA from Canton), I pressed the trigger and ordered IOTAVX AVX17. It will be delivered tomorrow. There are groups in the internet who felt a pre-amp like Marantz 7706 has more channel separation, sounding open than Denon 3700 (with amps shut down) -> of course with room correction switched off. I have myself not tried it. I remember my old Yamaha RX-V77 sound whose pre out I used to connect to Genelec. I usaually listen anywhere between 70-75 DB. Tomorrow when I receive this, I will set it up and try to test in the next days.
 
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I can't see any reason balanced is an absolute requirement. I do agree it's recommended, but pretty down on the list of priorities. Also, as to subjective claims of "xyz sounds better", I would just ignore them outright unless they're experienced integrators speaking to specific features (Dirac vs ARC vs Audyssey, for example).

I'm not sure if you're saying this room is actually your room, or just a very close example, but personally I'd add matching front heights and get any receiver that does Auro. If your subs are capable and integrated well, the front heights can be pretty small to keep cost low. 8320 or even 8310, but definitely stick within that line. Of your list, I believe Auro's only the Yamaha 5200 but I'm not certain. Minimum, for Denon that's 4700, marantz 7015 and Aventage series A6A (I think).

If Auro doesn't interest you much, then the 3700 is where I'd put my $ otherwise the 4700. Since you're using GLM, I'd vote just go with what's been independently proven to have clean 5.1.4 pre-outs (older 3700, newer probably fine as well). I have no idea the point of the Vanity for $1600.

It seems that the balanced output (when implemented correctly) had more channel separation. Do not know if the subjective claims pre-pro sound better than AVR with (amps shut) was to justify the purchase.

But here is a thread from AVS forum on Tonewinner AT-300

1642541086498.png
 

polmuaddib

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Do not know if the subjective claims pre-pro sound better than AVR
It's the problem with subjective reviews. You can't trust them.
There are one saying that Denon sounds better.
Others say Marantz is more musical.
Others swear by Yamaha.
It's just words. Means nothing. Who you gonna trust? Old and decadent audiophiles are gonna say that only 50000$ electronics will get you to audio nirvana with at least 5000$ worth of cables. Does that sound sane to you? But anyone can make statements based on their experience.

If you trust subjective reviews then you are in for confusion and stagnation.

Congrats on buying IOTA.
 
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It's the problem with subjective reviews. You can't trust them.
There are one saying that Denon sounds better.
Others say Marantz is more musical.
Others swear by Yamaha.
It's just words. Means nothing. Who you gonna trust? Old and decadent audiophiles are gonna say that only 50000$ electronics will get you to audio nirvana with at least 5000$ worth of cables. Does that sound sane to you? But anyone can make statements based on their experience.

If you trust subjective reviews then you are in for confusion and stagnation.

Congrats on buying IOTA.
Absolutely well said...Subjective reviews drives one crazy :). Thanks for the wishes... I will hook it up tomorrow and share my impressions (subjective again :facepalm::D:D). I do not have anything that can measure the IOTAVX :-D objectively.
 

tifune

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It seems that the balanced output (when implemented correctly) had more channel separation. Do not know if the subjective claims pre-pro sound better than AVR with (amps shut) was to justify the purchase.

But here is a thread from AVS forum on Tonewinner AT-300

View attachment 180030

No objective details listed in this "review" and the available evidence does not agree with his opinion. Audioholics did some measurements on the CX, and lots of Denon info here to sift through.

Regardless, hoping you enjoy the IOTA. Features look great but, digging deeper, I don't see a single performance spec anywhere?

I do not have anything that can measure the IOTAVX :-D objectively.

If that's something which interests you, the E1DA Cosmos ADC is quite cheap and can measure just about anything.
 
OP
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No objective details listed in this "review" and the available evidence does not agree with his opinion. Audioholics did some measurements on the CX, and lots of Denon info here to sift through.

Regardless, hoping you enjoy the IOTA. Features look great but, digging deeper, I don't see a single performance spec anywhere?



If that's something which interests you, the E1DA Cosmos ADC is quite cheap and can measure just about anything.
Thanks for pointing out to E1DA. Do you know any place where I can get step to step instructions on how to carry out measurements?
 
OP
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I found a website where I can generate 1KHZ sine tone as wav file for testing with E1DA. Is this the correct setting? Could experts please help me? Is there also a step by step documentation/steps that I can follow with E1DA to measure IOTA?

1642638798562.png
 

tifune

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I found a website where I can generate 1KHZ sine tone as wav file for testing with E1DA. Is this the correct setting? Could experts please help me? Is there also a step by step documentation/steps that I can follow with E1DA to measure IOTA?

View attachment 180325

Unfortunately I haven't done it myself, however the owners are very active on Discord and I have to imagine they've got a guide of some sort by now as they probably get this Q a lot.

This video could probably help you get your feet wet, but a but of tweaking would be required for IOTA:

 
D

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Hello all,

Wish you a happy new year!

I just sold my Yamaha RX-V775 last week along with passive floor standers Yamaha NS-777 for a decent price. The set up was 7 years old. Now I am looking for a processor to connect to my active speakers of 3 LCR Genelec 8340 and 2 surround 8330 for both movies and mch music. I do not have ceiling speakers and so no Atmos. I plan to have ceiling speakers only after a year or two. My set up looks like this. I would prefer to have the processor hidden in the low board but that's not an important criteria.

My source is only Apple TV for both mch music and movies. Occasionally for good movies, I do blu ray via PS4. Output is 65 inch LED 4K TV KD-65XF9005 and Full HD projector. I also have a 2 ch full digital streaming set up with Raspberry PI and Topping D10s feeding AES into LR Genelec.

The Denon's have measured very well in ASR and 3700 is the most recommended AVR. On the other hand Yamaha fans love the way higher end Aventage series like 3080, A8A, CX-A5200 sounds.

The main testing criteria for pre-processors has been to check for clipping and lower SINAD if they are connected to heavy demanding amps. Is this also true in my case as I will be connecting to Genelec and not any multi channel amplifiers?

Fundamental Question:
Ignoring the measurements of Denon, what is the factor that makes Yamaha sounds better than Denon/Marantz or Anthem for some users. Is it the combo of Room correction/DSP/ Surround AI of Yamaha that gives more details? I plan to switch off the EQ and not use YPAO, as correction is done via the GLM for Genelecs. I use miniDSP DDRC24 to correct my 2 SVS 12 inch subs. So I will be driving more or less in Straight mode with EQ off in the processor.


I am thinking of one of the two options:
Cheap:

Canton Smart Connect 5.1 for around 650 euros (link). Save money and go for all digital surround set up in few years with Genelec 2*7360 subs and 9301 bass management. Path will be Apple 4K TV -> HD Fury -> Black Magic HDMI to SDI convertor -> AJA SDI AES embedder or Black Magic SDI AES -> Genelec 9301 -> 8340/8330/subs. At the moment I have only analog subs from SVS. Digital volume control via Apple 4K TV remote.

Cons with the full digital set up: No up mixer or surround AI or virtualiser with digital set up. I am not sure if I need up mixer or virtualised instead of original format.

Expensive - budget 2500 Euros:
Balanced output XLR

Yamaha CX-A5200
Anthem AV60
IOTAVX AVX17
Marantz 7705
Unbalanced output RCA
Marantz 5015 or 6015
Denon 3700
Yamaha 880 or 1080
Multi channel HDMI extractor like this
Panasonic UB824

I can extend my budget if it is state of the art processor to max of 4000 Euros. Unfortunately monolith HTP-1 is not available in EU. Moreover I can achieve a digital path by least expensive combo of HD Fury with Black magic for less than 1000 Euros. Therefore spending more than 2500 euros seems to be not justifiable.

So in conclusion, I am leaning towards either Canton or CX-A5200 due to the following reasons.
  • CX-A5200 costs around 2500 Euros and measured well with Audioholics but not tested in ASR yet. When I go full digital, sell it in EBAY with a expected loss of 50%.
  • Anthem AV60 and Marantz 7705 did not measure well here but are cheaper than 5200.
  • IOTAVX 17 (link) seems to also ok but costs around 1900 euros and do not know the longevity of this product. Seems to be the version of Tonewinner or Emotive BASX. There is an ASR member who uses the older model and is happy.
  • 3700 and 6015 with amps shut down are the cheaper options. Both the units are out of stock and some internet users preferred Yamaha 5200 or other Yamaha AVRs to Denon 3700.
  • Yamaha 880 or 1080 does not have the option to shut down amps. I am not sure if the amps are shut down automatically if no cables are connected in the amp section.
  • Multi channel HDMI extractor not tested.
  • Panasonic UB900 blu ray player was tested here and is recommended. I could ditch Apple 4KTV but I cannot add apps in 824. Moreover no digital volume control. Unfortunately apart from OPPO (discontinued), there is no Blu Ray player with HDMI input ( to connect Apple TV) and with 5.1 channel RCA output.
Question for experts here:
  • Is my above considerations reasonable?
  • What would you recommend from the above factors?
  • Canton is not tested in ASR but has good reviews from many German websites. Looking at the measurements provided from Canton, will this be sufficient for my Genelec set up i.e 1V rms/600 OHM nominal and 3,4V rms maximum with SNR of 101 DB. On the down side, Canton does not offer Dolby Vision. Work around is to use Netflix, Disney in Sony TV and route Audio via ARC to Canton. Also posted are Yamaha measurements.
  • Should I go with Canton and save money for digital all output?

Canton measurements
View attachment 178605


View attachment 178606


Yamaha CX-A5200 Measurements
View attachment 178608

Looking forward to your opinion and recommendation!

Simply put none of the ones you listed, or any other decent measuring and well designed AVR or AVP should sound different from one another. I did some interesting testing yesterday, and I found out that I cannot tell the difference between the DAC’s in my nine-year-old Marantz AV8801 preamp, and the new Topping D90. I have these on a transparent XLR switcher, level matched, and the Topping going through the Marantz processing, and the Topping going through pure direct. No difference not even a little bit. The power of suggestion, and the power of placebo are very strong indeed.

Anyway my suggestion is don’t get too caught up in the specs and talk yourself out of an AVR, or AVP because one is all the way at the top of the SINAD chart, versus one that’s in the middle of the pack. In my opinion you’re likely to never hear a difference, so as long as it’s not broken, and performs reasonably well I doubt we will ever hear a difference.

That being said yes I want the best measuring gear as I can possibly but reasonably get, and Amir‘s review of the new Marantz AV 8805 is proof that Marantz in my opinion is resting on its laurels, and my 8801, and possibly the 8802 were one of the last ones that Marantz actually posted some specs on, not just a listing of features and THD.

Time for a revamp in the Denon and Marantz line in my opinion, although some measure better than others. It seems like Denon was always one step ahead of Marantz, at least in the time since they joined forces.

Anyway, my advice is… don’t get so caught up in the specs that you miss the enjoyment.

Edit;

I don’t know your room, but the best thing that you can do for your sound is treat your listening room. Bass traps in the corners, and acoustic tiles on the walls and ceiling, and a reasonably thick carpet on the floor will enhance your sound tenfold. I’ve always liked the natural approach, no DSP instead of treating it after the fact. That being said my next processor will have some good room correction in it, because I think it’s gotten much better in the last couple of years. at the very least run DSP after you treat your reflection points.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I saw really nice gear in a room that’s a reflection nightmare, they all just run room correction anymore. I can understand it, but I believe that we can help out the room correction a lot by treating our room first. My 2 cents.
 
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Dj7675

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Simply put none of the ones you listed, or any other decent measuring and well designed AVR or AVP should sound different from one another. I did some interesting testing yesterday, and I found out that I cannot tell the difference between the DAC’s in my nine-year-old Marantz AV8801 preamp, and the new Topping D90. I have these on a transparent XLR switcher, level matched, and the Topping going through the Marantz processing, and the Topping going through pure direct. No difference not even a little bit. The power of suggestion, and the power of placebo are very strong indeed.

Anyway my suggestion is don’t get too caught up in the specs and talk yourself out of an AVR, or AVP because one is all the way at the top of the SINAD chart, versus one that’s in the middle of the pack. In my opinion you’re likely to never hear a difference, so as long as it’s not broken, and performs reasonably well I doubt we will ever hear a difference.

That being said yes I want the best measuring gear as I can possibly but reasonably get, and Amir‘s review of the new Marantz AV 8805 is proof that Marantz in my opinion is resting on its laurels, and my 8801, and possibly the 8802 were one of the last ones that Marantz actually posted some specs on, not just a listing of features and THD.

Time for a revamp in the Denon and Marantz line in my opinion, although some measure better than others. It seems like Denon was always one step ahead of Marantz, at least in the time since they joined forces.

Anyway, my advice is… don’t get so caught up in the specs that you miss the enjoyment.

Edit;

I don’t know your room, but the best thing that you can do for your sound is treat your listening room. Bass traps in the corners, and acoustic tiles on the walls and ceiling, and a reasonably thick carpet on the floor will enhance your sound tenfold. I’ve always liked the natural approach, no DSP instead of treating it after the fact. That being said my next processor will have some good room correction in it, because I think it’s gotten much better in the last couple of years. at the very least run DSP after you treat your reflection points.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I saw really nice gear in a room that’s a reflection nightmare, they all just run room correction anymore. I can understand it, but I believe that we can help out the room correction a lot by treating our room first. My 2 cents.
Couple of comments..
-Room treatments for bass is simply not effective where room modes dominate and greatly affect the sound. In most rooms you will have +/- 20dB issues and are very audible. A large peak at 20-80hz just isn’t going to be affected by room treatment much at all.
-In 2 channel audio, with speakers that have excellent dispersion, reflected sound will be very similar to the direct sound of the speakers and this may sound better than absorbing those reflections to many. In multichannel settings it seems to me in my own room that some more treatment is needed.
I have 4 corners treated in my HT, and am getting ready to actually remove them so that it is easier to have 4 subwoofers will will do more for getting good bass for more seats than the room treatment ever could do.
 
D

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Couple of comments..
-Room treatments for bass is simply not effective where room modes dominate and greatly affect the sound. In most rooms you will have +/- 20dB issues and are very audible. A large peak at 20-80hz just isn’t going to be affected by room treatment much at all.
-In 2 channel audio, with speakers that have excellent dispersion, reflected sound will be very similar to the direct sound of the speakers and this may sound better than absorbing those reflections to many. In multichannel settings it seems to me in my own room that some more treatment is needed.
I have 4 corners treated in my HT, and am getting ready to actually remove them so that it is easier to have 4 subwoofers will will do more for getting good bass for more seats than the room treatment ever could do.

I’ll somewhat disagree, although I will agree with some of what you said.

After I treated my room, even though I’m not done yet, putting bass traps in the corners diminished the muddy bass quite a bit.

I run three large subwoofers nearfield, because I couldn’t get low bass to sound good in my large room. Bass traps made a huge difference in my room, because my front wall was overwhelmed with bass and it sounded muddy. That’s my experience in my room anyway.

I haven’t run any room correction yet, and I’m looking to do that soon.

Thanks for the comments and the tips.
 
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