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Surround Processor Recommendation for Genelec! Yamaha Vs Denon Vs Canton Smart Connect.

greenpsycho

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ah man, that marantz av8805a comes with a Josh!


1642337079555.png




to clarify, when we say digital to genelecs, that AFTER the avr does it decoding, kicks out analog, converted to digital via the rme unit (or similar) and then into the genelecs.
 

Trell

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ah man, that marantz av8805a comes with a Josh!


View attachment 179390



to clarify, when we say digital to genelecs, that AFTER the avr does it decoding, kicks out analog, converted to digital via the rme unit (or similar) and then into the genelecs.

No, digital here means that the AVR output is digital (AES3/EBU) to the Genelec, which will not be the case for the av8805a. You'll be using analogue preout to connect to the Genelecs.

Yes, you could do that, but I don't think it would make sense to do so: Just use the balanced analogue out from the av8805a.
 
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Sprint

Sprint

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ah man, that marantz av8805a comes with a Josh!


View attachment 179390



to clarify, when we say digital to genelecs, that AFTER the avr does it decoding, kicks out analog, converted to digital via the rme unit (or similar) and then into the genelecs.
8805A does not have digital output...Infact no cheaper AVR has got. The only way to get digital is follow this path AVR -> RCA cable from Preout (Analog) -> Each RCA cable goes into RME ADAT -> AES feeding into Genelec as digital input
 

Masza

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If you would go with unbalanced RCA pre-outs, use coaxial (75 ohm) cables: better isolation for interference.

Only ground issue cause for me with Genelecs in the past has been a bad antenna/TV signal line. But a cheap galvanic separator between the wall socket and the cable fixed that issue.
 

Trell

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8805A does not have digital output...Infact no cheaper AVR has got. The only way to get digital is follow this path AVR -> RCA cable from Preout (Analog) -> Each RCA cable goes into RME ADAT -> AES feeding into Genelec as digital input

The av8805a have balanced out, tough, and that is what I would use.

1642337928396.png
 
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Sprint

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If you would go with unbalanced RCA pre-outs, use coaxial (75 ohm) cables: better isolation for interference.

Only ground issue cause for me with Genelecs in the past has been a bad antenna/TV signal line. But a cheap galvanic separator between the wall socket and the cable fixed that issue.
I use something like this from Thomann. https://www.thomann.de/intl/pro_snake_15230_05_audio_adaptercable.htm. The RCA went into AVR pre out and the XLR is connected with another DMX XLR cable into Genelec. But I do not know if it is 75 Ohm. Is there any way to find out if it is 75 Ohm. Of course I can call Thomann to check.
 

greenpsycho

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8805A does not have digital output...Infact no cheaper AVR has got. The only way to get digital is follow this path AVR -> RCA cable from Preout (Analog) -> Each RCA cable goes into RME ADAT -> AES feeding into Genelec as digital input
right, thats what I was trying to say (but was unclear). I just wanted to make it clear for people following this thread that the genelecs can not do the theater decoding (dd, dts, etc).
 

radix

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I would stay away from unbalanced at all cost. That is a prioriy IMO, because if you develop a ground loop in your system, it is very hard to remove it. And those can be hard and expensive to solve. Good, quality transformers are expensive.
As for the sound, they will all sound the same.
Yamaha does not measure better then Denon and Marantz. In fact, CX-A5200 has worse distortion on XLR fronts then RCA fronts. Not that it is audible! Also, Yamaha room correction is questionable. I don't know why they praise Yamaha at Audioholics....

I think that most realistic option are Marantz AVPs. You get Audyssey which is good value room correction with Editor app.

If you find AV7705 it will be the cheapest, but you don't have HDMI 2.1 and you will have maximum 11 channels not counting subs. They measure worse then Denon, but at 2V output it is not that bad, certainly not audible and because they output balanced XLR output (I know it is not true balanced, but who cares) they might sound cleaner (no hum, ground loops) in real world use.
The only thing you should consider is the sensitivity of Genelecs. Is 2V enough to play them loud.

AV 7706 is the same as 7705 but for HDMI 2.1 if that is something you will need in near future.

The best future proof option for some time might be MArantz AV8805A. It will have HDMI 2.1, 13 channels and better SINAD at 4v. But it costs a lot more.

I looked up RME ADI-8 DS which seems like a good idea, but it is expensive and more complicated solution with less channels IMO.

An 8805 is $5000. A denon 3700 is $1600 + RME $2200 = $3800. Still cheaper than an 8805. You can also get an 8+2 or a 16 channel A/D if needed. I thought you were looking at 5.x.2? If you are looking at 5.x.4, then yes, 8 channels is not enough. But do you want 83xx for heights? That seems really over kill for me (or at least for my money). I was assuming you don't need AES for the LFE/subs. Those should do OK with RG6 or similar analog line level. They will be LP filtered anyway.

If you do want 9 channels of AES, you could do RME-8 and RME-2FS (with an AES balun) for $3200 (so $4800 total).

There are other converters besides RME, but I don't know their performance.

Anyway, it sounds like you are interested in making an AVR out of pieces, so I can't really help with that. To me, an AVR seems like the obvious choice as it will "just work" and my girlfriend can use it without me pressing 15 buttons. In the AVR space, it's either a balanced AVR (more expensive, but wins for simplicity), a SE AVR + baluns, or a SE AVR + ADC.

I say, keep it simple. Keep it usable by someone who's not you. Fewer boxes are better. Fewer remotes are better. If you are going to spend over $15k on speakers ($12k for 5x 8331, plus subs, plus heights), then step up for the AV8805A. I have a Sony smart tv + denon. It's really simple to use. Everyone in the house can use it without me. There's only one remote.
 
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An 8805 is $5000. A denon 3700 is $1600 + RME $2200 = $3800. Still cheaper than an 8805. You can also get an 8+2 or a 16 channel A/D if needed. I thought you were looking at 5.x.2? If you are looking at 5.x.4, then yes, 8 channels is not enough. But do you want 83xx for heights? That seems really over kill for me (or at least for my money). I was assuming you don't need AES for the LFE/subs. Those should do OK with RG6 or similar analog line level. They will be LP filtered anyway.

If you do want 9 channels of AES, you could do RME-8 and RME-2FS (with an AES balun) for $3200 (so $4800 total).

There are other converters besides RME, but I don't know their performance.

Anyway, it sounds like you are interested in making an AVR out of pieces, so I can't really help with that. To me, an AVR seems like the obvious choice as it will "just work" and my girlfriend can use it without me pressing 15 buttons. In the AVR space, it's either a balanced AVR (more expensive, but wins for simplicity), a SE AVR + baluns, or a SE AVR + ADC.

I say, keep it simple. Keep it usable by someone who's not you. Fewer boxes are better. Fewer remotes are better. If you are going to spend over $15k on speakers ($12k for 5x 8331, plus subs, plus heights), then step up for the AV8805A. I have a Sony smart tv + denon. It's really simple to use. Everyone in the house can use it without me. There's only one remote.
@radix Thanks a lot! I was planning to go for 4 * 8320 for heights. The main motivation was a well integrated solution and especially if using bass management via Genelec subs (XLR Analog) or 9301 (Digital). 9301 will not work as it has only 8 channels whereas I need 11 to have 5.2.4. Or another option will be to manage only 5.2 digitally and the Atmos speakers done via normal XLR via second subwoofer. I have to ask Genelec if this works. Need to think through anyway.

By the way, RME ADI-DS is not available anymore and it was cheap at 700 Euros somewhere in the internet. seems only QS version is available for 2610 Euros. Fundamental question as not being an expert in electronics :) , when analog signal is taken via pre out RCA into RME, what happens to the noise, distortion, SINAD, SNR from Denon into RME? I guess it has an impact right?

Looks like an expensive balanced is a better run for money for simplicity.
 
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Just to cover all the bases, you could use an RME-8 DS or similar to convert singled-ended analog output from the AVR into balanced AES to feed to the speakers. You would then only need 1 cable per pair of speakers as they have AES pass-through. Though perhaps you don't need that for near-by front speakers, where interference might be limited? Anyway, the RME-8 DS, for example, has 1/4" TRS inputs, and there are cheap RCA plugs for those that do the normal pin 3 to ground which should be just fine. There's other multichannel A/D converters that might be less expensive and have all the channels you need.

Your path would then be Apple 4K TV - (HDMI) -> AVR - (RCA) -> 8-channel ADC - (AES) -> Genelec.

Another thing to remember is that with active speakers, I'm not sure how well comparisons of AVR sound transfer over, as you are not going to hear the AVR amps, only their processing.

An AVR might give you more decoding options for your particular speaker arrangement than straight from the Apple TV?

If you are planning on using GLM, then the AVR's room correction is not necessary. But, it might be convenient if you want multiple profiles and switch between them with one remote.
Fully with you, AVR has more decoders and that's why we are compelled and have no chance to bypass AVRs. I do not plan to use any room correction from AVR. GLM is sophisticated to my ears and based on Genelec rep recommendation, I use the same profile for both multichannel (all speakers) and 2ch stereo (front LR). Wish AVRs were slim with basic balanced connections and multiple HDMI Inputs. My low board is just 17,8 centimetres in height. My family wants to keep the AVR in the low board which can be closed so that it is not visible. At this point of time, only Anthem AV60 with balanced out fits in my low board. Yamaha CX-A5200, Marantz 7706 does not fit and I need to keep outside. Anthem AV60 did not measure well here in ASR but I am getting a good deal. Do not know how it sounds.
 
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Sprint

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If 1V is enough for Genelecs, then great.

Would you really be able to tell the difference between analog XLR input and digital input? I know digital input is theoretically better (because of internal ADC) and probably measure better, but is it really audible?
I have no experience in digital signals for surround sound but I know that devices that decode surround sound formats like Dolby Atmos, DTS-X, Auro... and send digital signals to corresponding speakers are rare and expensive.

I think that regular AVPs are the easiest and most realistic option.
They also offer upgrade for channel count. You can have 5.1 now and easily upgrade to 7.2 or 9.2 or 7.2.4 or even 9.2.4, whatever...
I do analog for movies and digital for 2ch stereo via raspberry pi -> topping D10s -> SPIDF/AES into Genelec and at the same time toslink into miniDSP DDRC24 for sub correction. I can definitely say digital sounds better. I cannot say how much percentage as I still need to apply high pass filters in Genelec. I will do this adjustments in the next weeks. Currently it is receiving full range and both Subs + Genelecs is playing low frequencies which is not ideal. I am quite sure that an all digital setup for multichannel will sound better.
 
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Delusion. I had a Yamaha 5100 as my first immersive AVP. I bought it because it was the only immersive unit that kept Dolby Pro Logic II, which is still IMO a much better upmixer for 2-channel than Dolby Surround. It was fine, if sometimes a pain to use. YPAO was useless.

The Marantz 7703 that replaced it sounded much better, but that was due entirely to the then new Audyssey iOS app.

But if you’re not using room correction and you like the interface, Yamaha will work as well as anything. Just keep in mind how gigantic they are. The 5100 was well over 20” deep with cabling.
Thanks! BTW if I do not plan to use any up mixer or virtualiser and use Genelec GLM for room correction. Could we assume that if no up mixers are used, no EQ, no room correction then both Yamaha, Marantz, Canton or Anthem should sound similar. Is my understanding correct? I plan to use the option "Straight" of Yamaha or "Pure" of Marantz so that it plays the sound format of the source signal and not something introduced by the AVR. Yes, I saw 5200 is 19,2 centimetres in height. This is giving me another problem. My low board is only 17,8 centimetres in height. So Yamaha 5200, 7706 will not fit and it will be challenge to win over my family to keep on top of the low board instead of inside with closed doors. The only AVR with balanced out that will fit is Anthem AV60 or Denon 3700/4700 Marantz 6015 but then they are unbalanced.. Anthem AV60 failed in measurements here in ASR but do not know if it is audible. Do you have any experience with Anthem AV60. It seems to be more premium than Yamaha, Denon or Marantz.
 
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I would check an alternative where you go fully digital, because the sound gets better .
Apple TV can send airplay to a Mac computer and there should be programs you can download that can fix 5.1 digitaly from AirPlay. You then need a USB c to AES or spdif converter from the Mac , doing Daisy chaining to the Genelecs digital inputs.
Volume regulation is done by Apple TV .
I was thinking about this as well. But then how do I take care of bass management? I guess I would have to apply high pass filter in GLM. For my SVS subs, I have miniDSP which accepts TOSLINK. Seems to be a good option. I am already thinking to try it out. I can use this set up mainly for movies. For normal daily TV watching. Do you know any uSB c to AES convertor? I found RME digiface which can do eight channels. Wish there were more channels because I can daisy chain the front LCR but the rears I cannot since my family will not allow cables to expose (see pic). BTW does Airplay do ATMOS as well though I do not know if any software like JRIVER can handle. I do mainly Netflix, Amazon prime and Disney+ and I heard Atmos does not work on macOS and available only in Win10.
 

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I would stay away from unbalanced at all cost. That is a prioriy IMO, because if you develop a ground loop in your system, it is very hard to remove it. And those can be hard and expensive to solve. Good, quality transformers are expensive.
As for the sound, they will all sound the same.
Yamaha does not measure better then Denon and Marantz. In fact, CX-A5200 has worse distortion on XLR fronts then RCA fronts. Not that it is audible! Also, Yamaha room correction is questionable. I don't know why they praise Yamaha at Audioholics....

I think that most realistic option are Marantz AVPs. You get Audyssey which is good value room correction with Editor app.

If you find AV7705 it will be the cheapest, but you don't have HDMI 2.1 and you will have maximum 11 channels not counting subs. They measure worse then Denon, but at 2V output it is not that bad, certainly not audible and because they output balanced XLR output (I know it is not true balanced, but who cares) they might sound cleaner (no hum, ground loops) in real world use.
The only thing you should consider is the sensitivity of Genelecs. Is 2V enough to play them loud.

AV 7706 is the same as 7705 but for HDMI 2.1 if that is something you will need in near future.

The best future proof option for some time might be MArantz AV8805A. It will have HDMI 2.1, 13 channels and better SINAD at 4v. But it costs a lot more.

I looked up RME ADI-8 DS which seems like a good idea, but it is expensive and more complicated solution with less channels IMO.
Fully agree.I already experienced ground loop due to a power extension. Luckily when I connected the cable to the wall socket directly, it went away.

I saw the measurements of 7705 and 7706 here in ASR and they were bad. Then I considered 5200 and saw review Audioholics where at least the basic measurements were quite ok except for the Front LR distortions which was high. Since Gene said it is not audible and he would still recommend this processor, I started to seriously consider 5200 over 7706. One question though, can I use the pre-outs for the LR channels and balanced for other channels? the unbalanced LR did well. What do you think?

The other option is Canton Smart connect 5.1 which is pure pre-amplifier and therefore I expect less noise/no ground loop. The only downside is it does not have Dolby vision, Auro3D and few less decoders compared to 5200. No prologic II. I do not see TV and so I do not think I will need them. I do not know if you tube needs Prologic II. An additional advantage is I can use 3 sets of wireless Canton soundbox 3 as Atmos without much cabling. They can be connected wirelessly to the Canton preamp. I can hang one each next to the screen. I have a power connection there. I can hang one more close to projector (taking the power from projector) facing down. It will be 3 instead of recommended 4 speakers from Dolby but I assume 3 is still better than 2. Sometimes in the future, I will have false ceiling and then I will add XLR and power cables for 4 Genelec 8320 as Atmos speakers. Unfortunately, we do not have wireless XLR transmitters that works well today.
 

radix

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@radix Thanks a lot! I was planning to go for 4 * 8320 for heights. The main motivation was a well integrated solution and especially if using bass management via Genelec subs (XLR Analog) or 9301 (Digital). 9301 will not work as it has only 8 channels whereas I need 11 to have 5.2.4. Or another option will be to manage only 5.2 digitally and the Atmos speakers done via normal XLR via second subwoofer. I have to ask Genelec if this works. Need to think through anyway.

By the way, RME ADI-DS is not available anymore and it was cheap at 700 Euros somewhere in the internet. seems only QS version is available for 2610 Euros. Fundamental question as not being an expert in electronics :) , when analog signal is taken via pre out RCA into RME, what happens to the noise, distortion, SINAD, SNR from Denon into RME? I guess it has an impact right?

Looks like an expensive balanced is a better run for money for simplicity.

RME has very good ADC. I doubt there would be any audible artifacts in terms of those metrics (sinad, thd+n, etc.). Could one measure it, yes, but it is likely way down below hearing. I could only find these measurements of the RME ADI-8 (unknown version). They look pretty amazing. It's probably better performance than you'll see from the Denon/Marantz. Amir's review of the 8805A is around 93 dB SINAD. The RME is going to be > 110 dB.

The RME-8-DS Mk III is the current version. I don't know the differences from the previous two. The RME-8 QS is a slightly more expensive option, as it has MADI support, which you do not need.
 

polmuaddib

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I do analog for movies and digital for 2ch stereo via raspberry pi -> topping D10s -> SPIDF/AES into Genelec and at the same time toslink into miniDSP DDRC24 for sub correction. I can definitely say digital sounds better. I cannot say how much percentage as I still need to apply high pass filters in Genelec. I will do this adjustments in the next weeks. Currently it is receiving full range and both Subs + Genelecs is playing low frequencies which is not ideal. I am quite sure that an all digital setup for multichannel will sound better.
Are you sure you are comparing analog and digital pathway correctly? Maybe those pathways have different volumes?

I don't have Genelecs and am not familiar with their features and functions, but I would imagine that their analog input just goes to AD conversion and then the signal goes through the same proccesing as a digital input.

A lot of devices have AD conversion implented just fine (transparent), I don't see why Genelecs would be at fault. RME probably does better AD conversion then Genelec speakers, but would you hear the difference if properly matched?

My thinking is that the difference you are hearing between analog and digital is probably just volume difference due to different signal pathways.
 

Tangband

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Are you sure you are comparing analog and digital pathway correctly? Maybe those pathways have different volumes?

I don't have Genelecs and am not familiar with their features and functions, but I would imagine that their analog input just goes to AD conversion and then the signal goes through the same proccesing as a digital input.

A lot of devices have AD conversion implented just fine (transparent), I don't see why Genelecs would be at fault. RME probably does better AD conversion then Genelec speakers, but would you hear the difference if properly matched?

My thinking is that the difference you are hearing between analog and digital is probably just volume difference due to different signal pathways.
No, the difference is clearly audible.
I have the 8340 , I also have different dsp crossovers, for example a dbx pa2 driverack and Im very familiar with minidsp .

There is a ( false ) believe in this forum that doing A/D conversion dont make the sound slightly worse and thats probably true if you have bad passive loudspeakers and dont have a chance to hear the difference .

The thruth is that the better gear you have the more differences you gonna hear . You gonna hear if there is an A/D conversion extra . I can hear the A/D conversion in minidsp and in dbx driverack and those units are much worse sounding than the Genelec 8340 A/D , wich I also can hear.

In a passive loudspeaker setup - ofcourse non of this things will be audible because of the passive sounddestructive loudspeaker crossover .

Driving an active DSP loudspeaker directly with a digital signal is the next level of high fidelity . Its so much better than passive loudspeakers or active dsp loudspeakers with an A/D converter before the dsp filtering . You must hear it to understand it.

So it would be nice with a completely digital 5.1 solution .

With that said, an analog connection to 8340 is probably gonna sound much better than any passive loudspeaker of the same size ,regardless of price.
 
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Masza

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The DAC/analog source that feeds the ADC also has an effect on the sound. So when you say you hear the ADC you hear it but the source also.

If the source controls volume and you listen with low volume that may lower the precision of the converted digital signal as low volume means lower voltage level that is feed to the ADC.

@Sprint does your cabinet have ventilation? AVRs and AVPs may get hot or at least very warm in a place like that which may decrease their lifetime.
 
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Tangband

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The DAC/analog source that feeds the ADC also has an effect on the sound. So when you say you hear the ADC you hear it but the source also.

If the source controls volume and you listen with low volume that may lower the precision of the converted digital signal as low volume means lower voltage level that is feed to the ADC.

@Sprint does your cabinet have ventilation? AVRs and AVPs may get hot or at least very warm in a place like that which may decrease their lifetime.
Very true.
Going all digital, you can get a better sound.
 

radix

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No, the difference is clearly audible.
I have the 8340 , I also have different dsp crossovers, for example a dbx pa2 driverack and Im very familiar with minidsp .

There is a ( false ) believe in this forum that doing A/D conversion dont make the sound slightly worse and thats probably true if you have bad passive loudspeakers and dont have a chance to hear the difference .

The thruth is that the better gear you have the more differences you gonna hear . You gonna hear if there is an A/D conversion extra . I can hear the A/D conversion in minidsp and in dbx driverack and those units are much worse sounding than the Genelec 8340 A/D , wich I also can hear.

So if you have an analog source S and you have two paths S -(XLR)-> ADC - (AES) -> Genelec and S - (XLR)-> Genelec, you say you can hear a clear difference. I'm sure you do hear a difference, but there might be several reasons for the difference.

It is important that you listen to the two cases at the same SPL. I'm not sure how one would level balance those two paths except to use an SPL meter, which will be a bit inaccurate (compared to being able to measure a voltage at a passive).

If you've compared them level matched, I'd be interested to know what difference you hear in them? Is it a FR or distoration difference?

I drive my KH750/KH80s with both digital and analog. I've not noticed any significance difference, but I've not done a careful test. I've also not re-sampled A->D->A->KH750. Maybe I'll try that sometime to see if I hear anything different.
 
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