Surround Processor Recommendation for Genelec! Yamaha Vs Denon Vs Canton Smart Connect.

[Tangband]

So if you have an analog source S and you have two paths S -(XLR)-> ADC - (AES) -> Genelec and S - (XLR)-> Genelec, you say you can hear a clear difference. I'm sure you do hear a difference, but there might be several reasons for the difference.

It is important that you listen to the two cases at the same SPL. I'm not sure how one would level balance those two paths except to use an SPL meter, which will be a bit inaccurate (compared to being able to measure a voltage at a passive).

If you've compared them level matched, I'd be interested to know what difference you hear in them? Is it a FR or distoration difference?

I drive my KH750/KH80s with both digital and analog. I've not noticed any significance difference, but I've not done a careful test. I've also not re-sampled A->D->A->KH750. Maybe I'll try that sometime to see if I hear anything different.

Your KH80s dont have a digital input for sound , so all signals go through an A/D .

Neumann KH80 DSP, 48khz?

Looking at the website, it says that the speaker operates at 48khz.. Does this mean anything playing above 48khz will get downsampled by the monitor when playing back? I don't to talk about whether or not you can perceive above whatever khz etc, literally just the stats.

www.audiosciencereview.com

The difference in sound with one less A/D or D/A is the same as with every digital gear, more or less. Somewhat bigger dynamics and a slightly more clear sound.

Sprint, I suppose, has the same experience as I do , so no need for any blind tests.
A good digital source ( good isolation- computer to dac, good clocks , no Windows bitcrunching ) makes a difference to.

 

[polmuaddib]

so no need for any blind tests.

I am sorry but this makes me doubt your statements more.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

If 1V is enough for Genelecs, then great.

Would you really be able to tell the difference between analog XLR input and digital input? I know digital input is theoretically better (because of internal ADC) and probably measure better, but is it really audible?
I have no experience in digital signals for surround sound but I know that devices that decode surround sound formats like Dolby Atmos, DTS-X, Auro... and send digital signals to corresponding speakers are rare and expensive.

I think that regular AVPs are the easiest and most realistic option.
They also offer upgrade for channel count. You can have 5.1 now and easily upgrade to 7.2 or 9.2 or 7.2.4 or even 9.2.4, whatever...

+1
I share this opinion.
If money is no object, then a Storm or Trinnov Processor is the endgame. Slam-Dunk,Michale Jordan or Lebron James kind of products. GOAT-type products ... Performance, capabilities are immense and ...
But if one lands a bit an AVR such as the aformentioned Denon AVR-X3700, will provide most of what an audiophile need..

 

[dshreter]

No, the difference is clearly audible.
I have the 8340 , I also have different dsp crossovers, for example a dbx pa2 driverack and Im very familiar with minidsp .

There is a ( false ) believe in this forum that doing A/D conversion dont make the sound slightly worse and thats probably true if you have bad passive loudspeakers and dont have a chance to hear the difference .

The thruth is that the better gear you have the more differences you gonna hear . You gonna hear if there is an A/D conversion extra . I can hear the A/D conversion in minidsp and in dbx driverack and those units are much worse sounding than the Genelec 8340 A/D , wich I also can hear.

In a passive loudspeaker setup - ofcourse non of this things will be audible because of the passive sounddestructive loudspeaker crossover .

Driving an active DSP loudspeaker directly with a digital signal is the next level of high fidelity . Its so much better than passive loudspeakers or active dsp loudspeakers with an A/D converter before the dsp filtering . You must hear it to understand it.

So it would be nice with a completely digital 5.1 solution .

With that said, an analog connection to 8340 is probably gonna sound much better than any passive loudspeaker of the same size ,regardless of price.

No reason to believe this is different from any other sighted assessment. Sending an analogue signal to a DSP speaker that will do its own AD / DA sure seems like a waste but if you want to convince anyone the difference is audible you will need stronger evidence.

 

[Sprint]

Are you sure you are comparing analog and digital pathway correctly? Maybe those pathways have different volumes?

I don't have Genelecs and am not familiar with their features and functions, but I would imagine that their analog input just goes to AD conversion and then the signal goes through the same proccesing as a digital input.

A lot of devices have AD conversion implented just fine (transparent), I don't see why Genelecs would be at fault. RME probably does better AD conversion then Genelec speakers, but would you hear the difference if properly matched?

My thinking is that the difference you are hearing between analog and digital is probably just volume difference due to different signal pathways.

That's a good point. I did a comparison between analog 2.0ch pure direct from my Yamaha AVR 775 to the raspberry PI -> Topping D10s. I am with you that this is not the right comparison. What I will do during the weekend is to use the Analog XLR out of Topping D10 and compare with digital out from the same Topping D10 with level match using my iPhone DB meter to avoid any volume difference. I will switch off the subs so that I will test with full range. Will then share my impression here.

I think the culprit here is the implementation of DAC in Yamaha AVR 775.

BTW, I was in touch with the Genelec rep. This is what he said on introduction of RME.

"I would assume that the Genelec adds very little noise or distortion at any gain setting. Then use the best signal source that you can. I would use the AD converter in the Genelec, rather than buying a separate one - it has been chosen and designed in to the speaker, matched as well as possible, not over-specified or under-specified."

 

[Tangband]

Sprint - looking forward to listening impressions from you, regarding digital or analog input for 8340.

 

[Sprint]

The DAC/analog source that feeds the ADC also has an effect on the sound. So when you say you hear the ADC you hear it but the source also.

If the source controls volume and you listen with low volume that may lower the precision of the converted digital signal as low volume means lower voltage level that is feed to the ADC.

@Sprint does your cabinet have ventilation? AVRs and AVPs may get hot or at least very warm in a place like that which may decrease their lifetime.

Very true. If the voltage is low, then it is better to increase the sensitivity in Genelecs. But the recommendation is to decrease the sensitivity in Genelec and increase the volume of the digital or analog source.

Yes my cabinet has ventilation at the back 8-10 cm through out the horizontal section of the low board. The front has a pull door. See pics in this thread. Since the cabinet is only 18.5 centimetres tall, I am seriously thinking now about IOTAVX AVX17 or Canton or Anthem AV70 (which is measured well here). Others will not fit. It seems IOTAVX AVX17 has true balanced out and not the fake ones. I spoke to the local dealer and he said that he has already sold around 30 units. Unfortunately it does not offer Auro3D and HDMI 2.1. But anyways we have very less Auro3D and 8K material anyway. AV70 is super expensive around 4100 Euros and people buy for the ARC. Since I will not use ARC, I do not see if it is worth this money for me. So why not try IOTAVX and see how it fares. There is a 30 day return policy here. It is the same as Tonewinner but different DAC and software. Wish Canton Smart Connect 5.1 and AVX17 is measured by Amir someday. I will be calling Canton tomorrow to find out the DAC they are using but on the other hand IOTAVX uses Cirrus Logic. Denon 3700 will also fit in my low board but it is fully out of stock.

 

[LukeD]

@radix Thanks a lot! I was planning to go for 4 * 8320 for heights. The main motivation was a well integrated solution and especially if using bass management via Genelec subs (XLR Analog) or 9301 (Digital). 9301 will not work as it has only 8 channels whereas I need 11 to have 5.2.4. Or another option will be to manage only 5.2 digitally and the Atmos speakers done via normal XLR via second subwoofer. I have to ask Genelec if this works. Need to think through anyway.

By the way, RME ADI-DS is not available anymore and it was cheap at 700 Euros somewhere in the internet. seems only QS version is available for 2610 Euros. Fundamental question as not being an expert in electronics , when analog signal is taken via pre out RCA into RME, what happens to the noise, distortion, SINAD, SNR from Denon into RME? I guess it has an impact right?

Looks like an expensive balanced is a better run for money for simplicity.

The manual for the 9301 shows how you can link two together to give a total of 16 digital channels.

 

[Sprint]

The manual for the 9301 shows how you can link two together to give a total of 16 digital channels.

Thanks for that! I was not aware that you can combine two. so basically we can do 16 channels + 4 subs if I am not mistaken.

 

[LukeD]

Thanks for that! I was not aware that you can combine two. so basically we can do 16 channels + 4 subs if I am not mistaken.

No worries. I spent my Christmas holiday going down a similar rabbit hole to you (i.e. trying to figure out how to get Atmos/DTS:X delivered digitally to Genelecs...).

One small detail to be aware of, the Genelec 8330's only feature a single XLR connector that can be used for either digital or analogue. I don't think this will be an issue for you as your L/C/R are all 8340's but something to remember if trying to deliver both signal types to the same speaker.

 

[Sprint]

What was your final conclusion to get everything digital?

do you have 8330A because mine is 8330A for surrounds and they have 3 xlr's - digital in, out and analog in

 

[Trell]

One small detail to be aware of, the Genelec 8330's only feature a single XLR connector that can be used for either digital or analogue. I don't think this will be an issue for you as your L/C/R are all 8340's but something to remember if trying to deliver both signal types to the same speaker.

You meant the 8320? That one has only analog input while 8330 has separate analog and digital input along with required digital out.

I agree that the OP should verify his assumptions.

 

[LukeD]

What was your final conclusion to get everything digital?

do you have 8330A because mine is 8330A for surrounds and they have 3 xlr's - digital in, out and analog in

View attachment 179748

Ah, woops. I stand corrected. It was the 8331's that only feature a single XLR...

No, I don't (yet) own 8330's. My current system is only 2ch based on 8040B's. I was planning out a "affordable dream" system. See this thread.

My conclusion RE delivering Atmos/DTS:X digitally was that it's not currently possible (except using very high end AVR's). Frustratingly, I couldn't find any good technical reason why a simple ("cheap") solution isn't possible. I think the simplest solution is software based as there are a number of pro-audio sound cards that can output multiple channels of AES. I'm hoping that one day OSMC (on a raspberry pi) will be able to decode Atmos and that drivers for the pro-audio sound cards become available for Linux/ARM processors...

Another thing I found was that Audio-over-IP is probably the future (at least in the Genelec speaker world) - a single cable that handles power, GLM networking and signal... But I couldn't find much on how to actually set up a home theatre system based on AoIP.

 

[Sprint]

Oops..there is the catch...seems 8320 has only Analog XLR inputs. I was wanting to use 8320 for ATMOS ceilings speakers. 8330 is too big for ceilings and that too in a living room. Oh no looks like all digital is not possible with ATMOS if I go for small 8320 speakers.

 

[Sprint]

Ah, woops. I stand corrected. It was the 8331's that only feature a single XLR...

No, I don't (yet) own 8330's. My current system is only 2ch based on 8040B's. I was planning out a "affordable dream" system. See this thread.

My conclusion RE delivering Atmos/DTS:X digitally was that it's not currently possible (except using very high end AVR's). Frustratingly, I couldn't find any good technical reason why a simple ("cheap") solution isn't possible. I think the simplest solution is software based as there are a number of pro-audio sound cards that can output multiple channels of AES. I'm hoping that one day OSMC (on a raspberry pi) will be able to decode Atmos and that drivers for the pro-audio sound cards become available for Linux/ARM processors...

Another thing I found was that Audio-over-IP is probably the future (at least in the Genelec speaker world) - a single cable that handles power, GLM networking and signal... But I couldn't find much on how to actually set up a home theatre system based on AoIP.

Seems like I can then use 4420 which accepts digital over ethernet RJ45 AES67. But then I need to buy this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Dual-AES3-Interface-Dante-AES67-AOIP-44-AES-/144148567555?var=0&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338268676&toolid=10044&customid=CjwKCAiAxJSPBhAoEiwAeO_fP6wW36cpPtU66PTj7hzAyyMoOuCzT22LRZ7UZqWFbMG-DS-S1gsxwhoCngcQAvD_BwE...

or this one https://www.thomann.de/gb/dante_avi...PutkKiFVkC0q2CJ9xjovQccF29msU26RoCOYEQAvD_BwE

Wha a pain :-D!

 

[Sprint]

Very true. If the voltage is low, then it is better to increase the sensitivity in Genelecs. But the recommendation is to decrease the sensitivity in Genelec and increase the volume of the digital or analog source.

Yes my cabinet has ventilation at the back 8-10 cm through out the horizontal section of the low board. The front has a pull door. See pics in this thread. Since the cabinet is only 18.5 centimetres tall, I am seriously thinking now about IOTAVX AVX17 or Canton or Anthem AV70 (which is measured well here). Others will not fit. It seems IOTAVX AVX17 has true balanced out and not the fake ones. I spoke to the local dealer and he said that he has already sold around 30 units. Unfortunately it does not offer Auro3D and HDMI 2.1. But anyways we have very less Auro3D and 8K material anyway. AV70 is super expensive around 4100 Euros and people buy for the ARC. Since I will not use ARC, I do not see if it is worth this money for me. So why not try IOTAVX and see how it fares. There is a 30 day return policy here. It is the same as Tonewinner but different DAC and software. Wish Canton Smart Connect 5.1 and AVX17 is measured by Amir someday. I will be calling Canton tomorrow to find out the DAC they are using but on the other hand IOTAVX uses Cirrus Logic. Denon 3700 will also fit in my low board but it is fully out of stock.

BTW I was looking at the DAC Cirrus CS42528 used in IOTAVX AVX17 and found this data sheet. Seems to be not bad no the paper with output of 1,8-4,95V. How does it fare compared to ESS in Yamaha CX-A5200 and AKM in Denon/Marantz/Anthem? Looks like Arcam is using it. But I remember Amir's words in his reviews that nowadays all DACs are good but it depends on how it is implemented.

 

[polmuaddib]

IOTA integrated stereo amplifier has been measured by Amir here. It fared ok, but not state of the art. It's dac measured even worse then amp. So, why would we expect better performance from their AVP?
Do we really care if there is true balanced pathway inside or not when the goal is no noise and transparent signal?

OTOH their price for channel count is the best out there. I don't find lack of support for Auro such a big deal, because of no native content and Dolby upmixer is now perfectly fine. Unfortunately no HDMI 2.1, but do we really need 8K and 4K@120 fps capability when there is no content? What games will you play at 120FPS when GPUs cost a fortune...
They offer support for 4 subs... impressive.

If they sent their AVP to Amir for testing and it gets a fine panther, it would go a long way for boosting their sale. I might be interested for sure.

 

[Karu]

You could cut out a section of the low board of the cabinet to create more height? And possibly lift all of the cabinet a couple cm more to get the other AVRs to fit?

 

[Sprint]

IOTA integrated stereo amplifier has been measured by Amir here. It fared ok, but not state of the art. It's dac measured even worse then amp. So, why would we expect better performance from their AVP?
Do we really care if there is true balanced pathway inside or not when the goal is no noise and transparent signal?

OTOH their price for channel count is the best out there. I don't find lack of support for Auro such a big deal, because of no native content and Dolby upmixer is now perfectly fine. Unfortunately no HDMI 2.1, but do we really need 8K and 4K@120 fps capability when there is no content? What games will you play at 120FPS when GPUs cost a fortune...
They offer support for 4 subs... impressive.

If they sent their AVP to Amir for testing and it gets a fine panther, it would go a long way for boosting their sale. I might be interested for sure.

I fully forgot about this review of their integrated Amps. I went through it and fully agree with you.

One statement that I liked what Amir mentioned is "You don't get to brag its measured performance but what is there "is not broken" which is often an accomplishment in world of audio. Performance is solid across the board with the DAC trailing a bit. I would happily use it in a secondary system."

OTOH, AVX17 is using Cirrus CS42528 which was also used in Arcam SR250 which many of them loved. The DAC performance in the integrated amplifier SA3 could be because of the power amps used and the noise generating from them. My wishful thinking is that since AVX17 does not have amps, its DAC probably may perform better than the SA3.

I will be talking to IOTAVX UK tomorrow and will mention about ASR. Probably they are interested to send an unit to Amir to get it measured. If this gets measured well, then as you say, it will find many takers. Add a miniDSP DIRAC on top, it could become very attractive.

 

[Sprint]

You could cut out a section of the low board of the cabinet to create more height? And possibly lift all of the cabinet a couple cm more to get the other AVRs to fit?

unfortunately, the boss will not allow this . I would have to buy a new board. In that case, it will become a high board and I have other issues like placing the center channel when the projector screen is lowered.