Subwoofers make all big speakers obsolete?

[DonR]

I don't think it is in absolute numbers but rather an impression when you are in our audiophile "bubble" like related forums, the few remaining hifi shops and fairs. If you look in the charts of price comparison sites and big shops like Amazon the HT seems to sell much more, also almost all "average consumers" I know rather buy AVRs then stereo amps.

I would have thought audio to the average consumer means BT speakers and soundbars these days regardless of where they live.

 

[thewas]

I would have thought audio to the average consumer means BT speakers and soundbars these days regardless of where they live.

Yes, these of course make nowadays an even higher market share, I was comparing just home theatre to classic stereo.

 

[CDMC]

I'd like my mains to play an octave below the crossover point if possible. Crossovers are not brick walls that drop to zero instantaneously on either side; they roll off gradually, so there can be significant energy an octave above and below the crossover frequency. It is easier to integrate subs when there is goodly overlap with the range that the sub can handle.

Copy of my old standing response to "why subs?":

I use subs, and have for decades, for all the usual reasons:

- Very (perhaps extremely) few "large" speakers actually play well below 40 Hz let alone 20 Hz. They distort heavily when presented with large bass signals (which most are -- see Fletcher-Munson) and driving them hard down low robs headroom for higher frequencies and causes distortion well above the fundamental signal frequency (harmonic and nasty intermodulation). Subs typically enable the mains to operate with much lower distortion.

- Very rare is the room setup such that the best place for stereo imaging and soundfield is the best place for the subs (or deep bass drivers) to counter room modes and such. Having independent subs provides placement options to smooth the in-room response. It is almost impossible to counter a null without subs (typically must move the MLP or change the room's dimensions though there are purpose-built panels that can also work). This is one of the things that led me to subs despite having quite capable mains.

- Powered subs offload the main amplifiers of the need to provide deep bass energy, providing more headroom and cleaner sound from the amplifiers.

- Music (let alone action movies) often contains deep bass content even if it is not real obvious. Kick drums, tympani, organ, sure, but also piano hammer strikes, plucked strings, beat patterns from instruments playing together, etc. May not really notice when they are there but usually obvious when they are taken away. Having subs fill in the bottom octave or three can make a difference.

- Purpose-built subs can provide high output cleanly at relatively low cost. The amplifiers and drivers need only cover a fairly limited frequency range so have fewer constraints upon them than woofers in a full-range system.

I do prefer main speakers with fairly deep bass and always have. Crossovers are not brick walls so a fair amount of energy still comes from the mains an octave below the crossover frequency. Higher-order crossovers allow you to reduce the overlap, but I still like having the capability. I have never really understood the idea of running "passive" bi-amping as implemented by an AVR (sending full-range signals to multiple channels and letting the speaker's crossovers separate frequency bands -- wastes amplifier headroom and seems to me of little benefit). Nor do I agree with the "plus" setting putting subs and mains in parallel; again, my idea has always been to isolate the two for the reasons above.

My first sub was a DIY design using an Infinity IRS woofer with my own control box to provide the crossover and a servo circuit using the second voice coil of the woofer. I had a Hafler DH-220 around so also incorporated a circuit to bridge it for use as a subwoofer amp. It worked well and the -3 dB point was ~16 Hz. I now run four small (F12) Rythmik subs using a similar (but updated) servo design with my Revel Salon2's and am happy with the result.

FWIWFM/IME/IMO/my 0.000001 cent (microcent) - Don

This x1000. It is really hard to fully integrate subs with speakers that lack bass. A basic design rule is that you want your driver to be linear for an octave past the crossover. So for a common 80hz crossover, you want your mains to extend comfortably down to 40hz before rolling off. This means a decent sized bass driver in the mains. I know that with my revels high passed at 80hz, when cranked up (i.e. 100+db peaks) you will still see the 8” woofers moving a lot.

 

[Kvalsvoll]

Subwoofers do not make large main speakers obsolete, it is advances in technology and design that makes it possible to make smaller high performance main speakers.

All serious system has some sort of separate bass-system solution, call it subwoofer if you will.

 

[kongwee]

This x1000. It is really hard to fully integrate subs with speakers that lack bass. A basic design rule is that you want your driver to be linear for an octave past the crossover. So for a common 80hz crossover, you want your mains to extend comfortably down to 40hz before rolling off. This means a decent sized bass driver in the mains. I know that with my revels high passed at 80hz, when cranked up (i.e. 100+db peaks) you will still see the 8” woofers moving a lot.

Once setup ML that goes down to 28Hz with their own brand 3 driver subwoofer. Tune in as much as I could. I do like the combination, especially hearing the 808 drop.

 

[voodooless]

I think we can objectively solve this debate quite easily. Let's look at the preference scores of towers without subs vs smaller speakers with sub. In fact, all high-scoring units with sub are small speakers

... an no, this is not fair . The sample size of smaller speakers vs towers is totally slanted because Amir is too lazy to lug those large speakers onto the Kippel or into his listing room

 

[bluefuzz]

I am curious why however; is that because HT in general is not as popular in Europe?

For one thing smaller houses in general in Europe. And a lot of people live in apartments. Just placing two small bookshelves is an issue for most people. I have often seen small speakers placed on the floor or even stacked on top of each other in a corner.

As I've probably said before, I have never met anyone, nor know of anyone in my social sphere who owns an AVR or anything as exotic as a subwoofer. And I live in a fairly wealthy corner of one of the richest countries in the world ...

On reflection that's not quite true - a former colleague's husband did, I believe have a 5.1 surround system (and presumably an AVR) in the basement (not allowed anywhere near the living room) but he was an audio professional working for TV.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

The struggle behind integrating a subwoofer seamlessly to another speaker is not menial.

Unless you have a DSP program like Dirac Live.
Then, after you found the nicest spot to put the sub, the integration takes what ... 10 minutes?

 

[voodooless]

Unless you have a DSP program like Dirac Live.
Then, after you found the nicest spot to put the sub, the integration takes what ... 10 minutes?

Hardly. Dirac Live does only do proper sub integration if you buy a separate module, and that is only supported on a limited number of devices.

 

[MCH]

For one thing smaller houses in general in Europe. And a lot of people live in apartments. Just placing two small bookshelves is an issue for most people. I have often seen small speakers placed on the floor or even stacked on top of each other in a corner.

As I've probably said before, I have never met anyone, nor know of anyone in my social sphere who owns an AVR or anything as exotic as a subwoofer. And I live in a fairly wealthy corner of one of the richest countries in the world ...

On reflection that's not quite true - a former colleague's husband did, I believe have a 5.1 surround system (and presumably an AVR) in the basement (not allowed anywhere near the living room) but he was an audio professional working for TV.

We might be neighbours @bluefuzz
I can confirm that i have never ever seen one of these HT rooms like some people show in the forum here in Europe. They exist for sure but i would not say they are common.

 

[dasdoing]

Let's look at the preference scores of towers without subs vs smaller speakers with sub. In fact, all high-scoring units with sub are small speakers

So the Genelec 8010 is 8th place all-time for example.
Now these things distort at 86dB allready and way above 80Hz

 

[voodooless]

So the Genelec 8010 is 8th place all-time for example.
Now these things distort at 86dB allready and way above 80Hz

Obviously the preference scores are not perfect It also depends on your needs. In the end, everything is a compromise, you'll just need to make the right one for your case.

 

[dasdoing]

preference scores are not perfect

now I agree that not everybody needs the SPL, but in this "with-sub" category a speaker-woofer that get's into it's limits above 80Hz? this speaker would need to be crossed at 150Hz-ish even at lower volumes

 

[voodooless]

now I agree that not everybody needs the SPL, but in this "with-sub" category a speaker-woofer that get's into it's limits above 80Hz? this speaker would need to be crossed at 150Hz-ish even at lower volumes

Add a sub per speaker, underneath it, and that should not be a big issue. Sub choice will be a bit more limited if it needs to play at over 150 Hz, but it's doable.

But in general, a 5.x" driver is probably the bare minimum for crossing to a sub.

 

[bloomdido]

I understand it's likely to be a topic for another thread (do we already have such a thread?) but the OP didn't say "passive speakers" and I have an impression active speakers, especially those with room correction built in (like SA's Silverbacks) are actually making speaker+sub combos obsolete (or have a good chance to do that at least for a large part of audiophile community) - on this forum I guess I don't even need to explain why. Just built 3-way speakers with Hypex FusionAmp with bass drivers working playing 20-300 Hz and I have a real problem on what to do with my CA CXA80 + Harbeth 30.1 + SA SubElectro 200 which suddenly became irrelevant. This also opens the way to all sorts of crazy speaker designs like open baffle mid + horn tweeter + closed woofer like in my system.

 

[voodooless]

For the lowest octaves, subs are always preferred. You can place multiple of them to smooth out the bass response. Obviously, a large speaker working those lowest octaves already helps as well, but it does not make a sub obsolete.

 

[Willem]

My Quad 2805 electrostatic speakers go down to a bit below 40 Hz. However, adding a sub with decent extension to below 20 Hz and dsp room eq made quite a difference. More recently I also inserted a high pass filter around 80 Hz, and that made life audibly quite a bit easier for both the Quad 2805s and the power amplifier. The next step will be multiple subwoofers.

 

[Bleib]

If you want ultra low distorsion you combine both floorstanders and subwoofers, perhaps more than one

The floorstanders go deeper than 20hz on their own, but to make things really clean you go the extra mile
(Ino Audio, only possible to buy in Sweden from Stockholm)

 

[nerdoldnerdith]

Huge speakers + huge subwoofers > big speakers + big subwoofers > small speakers + big subwoofers > big speakers + small subwoofers > small speakers + small subwoofers > big speakers > small speakers

 

[ebslo]

Add a sub per speaker, underneath it, and that should not be a big issue. Sub choice will be a bit more limited if it needs to play at over 150 Hz, but it's doable.

But in general, a 5.x" driver is probably the bare minimum for crossing to a sub.

Doesn't that give up one of the main benefits of a sub, that its location can be independent from the speaker's? Or would you do a sub under each speaker in addition to one or more well positioned subs?