Subwoofers make all big speakers obsolete?

[sarumbear]

The main advantage of subwoofers is their addictional freedom of placement while for example big floorstander placement is in most practical cases a compromise between imaging and bass/SBIR.

That is also the disadvantage. Unless you use stereo subwoofers and/or a very low crossover frequency you will have localisation issues. The half wavelength at 100Hz is 1.7m. There’s not much freedom where you can place the subwoofers.

 

[Matthias McCready]

One point that it may be useful to add:

When you add a subwoofer (presuming a crossover is used) there are two crossovers going on:

1. Your set crossover frequency
2. Your acoustical crossover

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For example in live music it is common for the subwoofers to be on a "haystack;" with some genres such as hip-hop or EDM it is not uncommon to see that the subwoofers may have 18dB+ over the mains. So even though the theoretical subwoofers may have a 65hz crossover (in the DSP), the volume disparity could give an acoustical crossover at 115hz.

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Taking this into account before tuning a system is helpful.

 

[DonR]

A floor stander can easily have more SPL capacity than a subwoofer with a small speaker. Almost all floor-standers have at least an equivalent of a 12” woofer. Two of them means the total woofer size is 14”, similar to a large subwoofer with a 15” woofer. A hefty floor-stander like the Revel Salon2 has equivalent of a 14” by itself, or larger than a 18” subwoofer in total.

Subs usually have a much larger Xmax than towers though.

 

[thewas]

That is also the disadvantage. Unless you use stereo subwoofers and/or a very low crossover frequency you will have localisation issues. The half wavelength at 100Hz is 1.7m. There’s not much freedom where you can place the subwoofers.

Yes, that can be a disadvantage but with reasonable placement and/or crossover frequencies that can be accounted for, while the above mentioned problem of the full range loudspeakers not. Also using multiple subs you can have a much less position dependent bass in the room, like for example with double bass arrays.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Why? What’s stopping a floor-stander to use a 15” woofer? The Revel Salon2 has an equivalent of a 14” woofer.

How many subwoofers you know that can match the high SOL distortion of, say a JBL M2 at bass frequencies?

Most floorstanders try to play midbass and subbass with the same drivers. They typically won't be optimal for both, sometimes not for either. Many are ported solutions to go deeper, often not ideally implemented because people dont't want large boxes. Having a sub you will also separate the driver and frequencies with the highest vibrations physically from the loudspeaker cabinet, and you will have a dedicated high powered amplifier.

JBL M2 has great bass extension and low distortion, but it is not representative of most floorstanders as I'm sure you know.

It's also of course technically possible to build a 4-way tower speaker with a dedicated subwoofer driver and feed it 500W, but it's not exactly a typical tower speaker, and not what people are considering as an alternative to a smaller speaker + sub.

 

[More Dynamics Please]

There are not only big towers and small bookshelf speakers but also small towers and big bookshelf speakers. Comparing bookshelf speakers plus subwoofers against towers without subwoofers can produce radically different results depending on the specific speakers being compared.

 

[Frgirard]

The LFE inputs usually bypass the sub’s electrical low pass.

I had a kh810 to make up for the inability of the O300s not to clip under 80Hz
The kh810 had a line direct and could be used with an external crossover.

 

[Frgirard]

There are not only big towers and small bookshelf speakers but also small towers and big bookshelf speakers. Comparing bookshelf speakers plus subwoofers against towers without subwoofers can produce radically different results depending on the specific speakers being compared.

My kh420 are a bookshelf.

This thread is a trap without a precise context.

 

[Pearljam5000]

There are not only big towers and small bookshelf speakers but also small towers and big bookshelf speakers. Comparing bookshelf speakers plus subwoofers against towers without subwoofers can produce radically different results depending on the specific speakers being compared.

For example
1. 12 inch sub+ 5 inch studio monitor in each channel vs a full range tower with the same driver sizes( and bigger cabinet)

 

[gnarly]

I've never had a big speaker that still didn't benefit from a sub....and gosh, i've had/have some big boys.

 

[Sancus]

For example
1. 12 inch sub+ 5 inch studio monitor in each channel vs a full range tower with the same driver sizes( and bigger cabinet)

5" woofers are not big enough to have satisfying midbass outside of the nearfield, IMO. Large woofers have an advantage in midbass SPL(eg 100-300hz) and they also control dispersion to lower frequencies. There are "small" speakers that use tricks to mitigate or eliminate this last part(eg Genelec Ones, D&D 8C), but those tricks usually cost you some output as well.

JBL M2 vs Arendal 1961. Notice that the Arendal doesn't reach -6dB at 100 degrees until around 1khz, whereas it's more like 200-300hz for the M2. That's an extreme example, of course.

All that said, not trying to be mean or anything, but you've made several threads on this forum about large vs small speakers and all these responses have been repeated many times. Not to mention the threads by other people on the same topic. You're of course free to post whatever you like, but I'm just saying you might benefit from re-reading old threads from time to time instead of making new ones about the same general topics.

 

[Chrispy]

Wasn’t aware of that. Just read the user manual of a REL subwoofer and it wasn’t clear on that.

That's because it's Rel...they're "special"

 

[tuga]

But I think the majority of folk are using an AVR.

That may be true in the US but not in Europe.

 

[Pearljam5000]

5" woofers are not big enough to have satisfying midbass outside of the nearfield, IMO. Large woofers have an advantage in midbass SPL(eg 100-300hz) and they also control dispersion to lower frequencies. There are "small" speakers that use tricks to mitigate or eliminate this last part(eg Genelec Ones, D&D 8C), but those tricks usually cost you some output as well.

JBL M2 vs Arendal 1961. Notice that the Arendal doesn't reach -6dB at 100 degrees until around 1khz, whereas it's more like 200-300hz for the M2. That's an extreme example, of course.

All that said, not trying to be mean or anything, but you've made several threads on this forum about large vs small speakers and all these responses have been repeated many times. Not to mention the threads by other people on the same topic. You're of course free to post whatever you like, but I'm just saying you might benefit from re-reading old threads from time to time instead of making new ones about the same general topics.

While I get your criticism, I'm not asking the same thing.
Have I asked before about small speakers + a sub vs a full range one? Yes.
But that was more about the sound itself.
This is more of a philosophical / theoritical question.
Have subs changed audio forever and basically made all big Uber expensive high end speakers obsolete because you just couldn't compete with them in the past bass wise, but now you can "cheat" and basically have the same surface area as them for much less $$$

 

[Sancus]

Have subs changed audio forever and basically made all big Uber expensive high end speakers obsolete because you just couldn't compete with them in the past bass wise, but now you can "cheat" and basically have the same surface area as them for much less $$$

If your budget is very high/unlimited, the answer is no, otherwise the W371A(which is NOT a sub) wouldn't exist. There are still certain very specific things that you need lots of surface area for(mainly controlling directivity without losing a lot of output). And even with really big speakers, you still benefit from subs, as they do different things.

If the question is "what's the better value" then yes, subwoofers+small speakers will almost always have much better price/performance than a "big" all-in-one floorstander.

 

[kongwee]

Not at all, a full range speaker you wanna make it like Wilson Audio size speaker. Plus you really need to listen to far field. How many people can buy and fit them in their house? Plus the cost. I don't think you could get full range speaker decently under $10k. Sub for home theater is another story as you wanna the feel rumbles or "sound wave".

 

[f1shb0n3]

Mid-sized towers (Infinity R263) on top of matching subs (Infinity R12) - looks like a big speaker, works pretty well:


I'm not leaving them there though, will flip and mount towers on the wall to align the LR tweeters with the center channel.

 

[DonH56]

That may be true in the US but not in Europe.

I tend to think locally, sorry about that, and have no idea what is usual in Europe. I am curious why however; is that because HT in general is not as popular in Europe?

Also, the vast majority of questions (and questioners) seem to be coming from the HT (AVR/AVP) crowd these days, so I automatically fall into that trap in my thinking and response.

That said, my first sub ( a DIY servo design) came about because I wanted more and better bass from my L/R speakers long before HT was a thing. The main points I have tried to make, obviously not well, are about how a sub can augment a system's sound for music or movies, and the benefits it can provide. I do not really distinguish between them as use cases, not having (or wanting) separate two-channel and theater rooms and systems. HT and multichannel music take more channels, natch, and I want my system to do it all. I actually was thinking more of multichannel music when I started expanding my system, but actually it sees the most use for movies.

 

[DonH56]

Mid-sized towers (Infinity R263) on top of matching subs (Infinity R12) - looks like a big speaker, works pretty well:
View attachment 183257

I'm not leaving them there though, will flip and mount towers on the wall to align the LR tweeters with the center channel.

One suggestion: a cloth-covered brick or just a stuffed animal on the floor at the right side of the left subwoofer will help prevent the door from slamming into it and causing damage. Don't ask how I know this... And, do NOT forget about the doorknob that extends from the door (see previous sentence).

 

[thewas]

I tend to think locally, sorry about that, and have no idea what is usual in Europe. I am curious why however; is that because HT in general is not as popular in Europe?

I don't think it is in absolute numbers but rather an impression when you are in our audiophile "bubble" like related forums, the few remaining hifi shops and fairs. If you look in the charts of price comparison sites and big shops like Amazon the HT seems to sell much more, also almost all "average consumers" I know rather buy AVRs then stereo amps.