Subwoofer Situation

[Bill Brown]

Perfect. Thank you. I am all set. I want to begin delving into investigations of what I am actually hearing by looking at measurements at the LP v. multiple measurements around the LP v. MMM and various windowing approaches.

Bill

 

[luft262]

Also can you take moving mic averages. I like to get about 100 averages or until the RTA measurement stops adjusting (it will settle on a response usually around about 100 averages depending on how big of an area you are moving the microphone over.

I prefer using free space measurements because most house curves are designed without a body since they can't take account for every body size/shape/etc. I also prefer moving any furniture out of the way or measuring about 1ft above the furniture. This comes from Toole's research when they were measuring some movie theatres and found increased treble results after measuring right near the seat back, but this was not heard. Measuring above the seatback resulted in a meassurement that was more in line with what they heard. This was due to the reflections off of the seats, which shouldn't happen with a body in them.

Go to the generator and select these options (change the output channels appropriately though)
View attachment 179682


Then open the RTA screen and make sure these options are set:
View attachment 179683



Then follow how Erin did the moving mic in this video:

Per your earlier request here are the left ad right speakers.

Also, here I am with subs -21 db in java/stereo measurements

And here is the same using ASIO 1.3 and 1.4

 

[luft262]

Also can you take moving mic averages. I like to get about 100 averages or until the RTA measurement stops adjusting (it will settle on a response usually around about 100 averages depending on how big of an area you are moving the microphone over.

I prefer using free space measurements because most house curves are designed without a body since they can't take account for every body size/shape/etc. I also prefer moving any furniture out of the way or measuring about 1ft above the furniture. This comes from Toole's research when they were measuring some movie theatres and found increased treble results after measuring right near the seat back, but this was not heard. Measuring above the seatback resulted in a meassurement that was more in line with what they heard. This was due to the reflections off of the seats, which shouldn't happen with a body in them.

Go to the generator and select these options (change the output channels appropriately though)
View attachment 179682


Then open the RTA screen and make sure these options are set:
View attachment 179683



Then follow how Erin did the moving mic in this video:

Here is my RTA sweep

 

[dasdoing]

my guess would be that the sub is a cycle too late. Ever looked at excess group delay?

 

[Jdunk54nl]

Are the measurements above without a crossover on the AVR (or whatever you are using) on the left and right speaker?

Is everything setup the same as you would use it on the avr for normal circumstances?

If so, are the left and right speakers set to large or small? If large, try changing them to small and re-measure them.

 

[luft262]

OK. Here are some graphs after lots of playing with settings. I start with the original graphs (before making changes) and then I posted the results from after making changes. I apologize if I am boring anyone with too manny graphs. So far the changes I have made to improve my curve are as follows:

Decreased Sub Distance In AVR From 16.5 To 13.5 Feet
Increased Crossover From 80Hz To 120Hz
Adjusted Graphic EQ In AVR
Adjusted/Used The 3 PEQs Per Sub In SVS App
Decreased Sub Level From -13 to -18dB

I also played with things like phase and polarity, but was not able to improve on the original settings.

Here begins the graphs with the original settings:

Here begins the graphs with updated settings:

Here are a couple of overlays

Here is All SPL without Phase

Here are results zoomed in from 10 to 200 Hz

Perhaps that data gives some insight to others regarding my situation and how to best go about improving sound quality in my room.

My takeaway from this experience is that I think I have to come to terms with the fact that I have a multipurpose room that will never be an anechoic chamber or even a home theater room. I will always have to make choices/sacrifices. I think Adam is right that I would probably be very happy with some very large subs! However, I don't think I could justify spending more than about $1,500 per sub and I currently don't have a ton of space for large ported subs. I already have to run the subs I currently have at -18dB just to blend them properly with my speakers. Over time I'll get a better AVR, but I don't know when that will be or what effect it will have. In regards to the HSU subs they are only slightly bigger and would hit a little lower do to their greater displacement, but I would lose some features, especially the PEQ filters, and it doesn't look like even a new AVR will give me access to PEQ. I could get a miniDSP, but Amir showed that it adds too much distortion. I could go for the upgraded DSP with less distortion, but those cost about $1,000. At my current price point there probably aren't any subs that are going to give me less distortion above 40Hz or DSP controls. There are some that could dig deeper, but that's about it. The HSU's specifically go about 6 dB higher under 40Hz and use 15" drivers with a 600 watt amp. The SVSs I'm currently using have 13" drivers, but audioholics says they are more like 13.875" and are unsure why SVS rounded down when most manufacturers would have rounded up. I think it's because they wanted to differentiate within there own product line to give consumers a reason to purchase the 4000 series, but that's just me. It uses aluminum rather than paper cone drivers like the HSU so there are pluses and minuses between the two and I doubt I could ever find a clear winner between the two.

In a perfect world I would get bigger and better subs, but I cold also do a bunch of other stuff like room treatments, better AVR, better TV, etc. I think overall these subs are about as good as I'm going to get given my limitations.

Thank you all for your help and feel free to chime in with suggestions. I appreciate and read all of them.

 

[kiwifi]

Perhaps that data gives some insight to others regarding my situation and how to best go about improving sound quality in my room.

My takeaway from this experience is that I think I have to come to terms with the fact that I have a multipurpose room that will never be an anechoic chamber or even a home theater room. I will always have to make choices/sacrifices. I think Adam is right that I would probably be very happy with some very large subs! However, I don't think I could justify spending more than about $1,500 per sub and I currently don't have a ton of space for large ported subs. I already have to run the subs I currently have at -18dB just to blend them properly with my speakers. Over time I'll get a better AVR, but I don't know when that will be or what effect it will have. In regards to the HSU subs they are only slightly bigger and would hit a little lower do to their greater displacement, but I would lose some features, especially the PEQ filters, and it doesn't look like even a new AVR will give me access to PEQ. I could get a miniDSP, but Amir showed that it adds too much distortion. I could go for the upgraded DSP with less distortion, but those cost about $1,000. At my current price point there probably aren't any subs that are going to give me less distortion above 40Hz or DSP controls. There are some that could dig deeper, but that's about it. The HSU's specifically go about 6 dB higher under 40Hz and use 15" drivers with a 600 watt amp. The SVSs I'm currently using have 13" drivers, but audioholics says they are more like 13.875" and are unsure why SVS rounded down when most manufacturers would have rounded up. I think it's because they wanted to differentiate within there own product line to give consumers a reason to purchase the 4000 series, but that's just me. It uses aluminum rather than paper cone drivers like the HSU so there are pluses and minuses between the two and I doubt I could ever find a clear winner between the two.

In a perfect world I would get bigger and better subs, but I cold also do a bunch of other stuff like room treatments, better AVR, better TV, etc. I think overall these subs are about as good as I'm going to get given my limitations.

Thank you all for your help and feel free to chime in with suggestions. I appreciate and read all of them.

How were the subwoofer PEQ's arrived at? Have you tried using Multi-Sub Optimizer?
Using miniDSP 2x4 won't add any audible distortion to your subs. Alternatively you can pick-up a QSC DSP-30 for $60 off eBay and use MSO to properly equalize your two subs into one for your AVR
Yes, room treatment will make a big difference but not below about 500Hz. Better to use PEQ rather than bass traps IMHO and focus room treatments on addressing the first refection points and SBIR.
There is nothing wrong with the SVS subs that you have. Send them to me if you don't like them!

 

[dasdoing]

OK. Here are some graphs after lots of playing with settings. I start with the original graphs (before making changes) and then I posted the results from after making changes. I apologize if I am boring anyone with too manny graphs. So far the changes I have made to improve my curve are as follows:

Decreased Sub Distance In AVR From 16.5 To 13.5 Feet
Increased Crossover From 80Hz To 120Hz
Adjusted Graphic EQ In AVR
Adjusted/Used The 3 PEQs Per Sub In SVS App
Decreased Sub Level From -13 to -18dB

I also played with things like phase and polarity, but was not able to improve on the original settings.

Here begins the graphs with the original settings:

Here begins the graphs with updated settings:

Here are a couple of overlays

Here is All SPL without Phase

Here are results zoomed in from 10 to 200 Hz

Perhaps that data gives some insight to others regarding my situation and how to best go about improving sound quality in my room.

My takeaway from this experience is that I think I have to come to terms with the fact that I have a multipurpose room that will never be an anechoic chamber or even a home theater room. I will always have to make choices/sacrifices. I think Adam is right that I would probably be very happy with some very large subs! However, I don't think I could justify spending more than about $1,500 per sub and I currently don't have a ton of space for large ported subs. I already have to run the subs I currently have at -18dB just to blend them properly with my speakers. Over time I'll get a better AVR, but I don't know when that will be or what effect it will have. In regards to the HSU subs they are only slightly bigger and would hit a little lower do to their greater displacement, but I would lose some features, especially the PEQ filters, and it doesn't look like even a new AVR will give me access to PEQ. I could get a miniDSP, but Amir showed that it adds too much distortion. I could go for the upgraded DSP with less distortion, but those cost about $1,000. At my current price point there probably aren't any subs that are going to give me less distortion above 40Hz or DSP controls. There are some that could dig deeper, but that's about it. The HSU's specifically go about 6 dB higher under 40Hz and use 15" drivers with a 600 watt amp. The SVSs I'm currently using have 13" drivers, but audioholics says they are more like 13.875" and are unsure why SVS rounded down when most manufacturers would have rounded up. I think it's because they wanted to differentiate within there own product line to give consumers a reason to purchase the 4000 series, but that's just me. It uses aluminum rather than paper cone drivers like the HSU so there are pluses and minuses between the two and I doubt I could ever find a clear winner between the two.

In a perfect world I would get bigger and better subs, but I cold also do a bunch of other stuff like room treatments, better AVR, better TV, etc. I think overall these subs are about as good as I'm going to get given my limitations.

Thank you all for your help and feel free to chime in with suggestions. I appreciate and read all of them.

the waterfalls seams noisy, and you want to increase the time range for the bass.
what I do is meassuring a "non-sweep" so I get a waterfall for the noise only. I than adjust the vertical slider until the waterfall disapears. that way you make sure there will be no noise.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Definitely looks better than before at least.

It's easier to read your graphs if you try to keep the Y-axis consistent and at a 50dB window. 45-105dB is the most common. The reason your waterfall looks weird (the wave never "ends") is that your Y-axis is all the way down to 20dB.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Perhaps you can share an unsmoothed version of 20-200 at 85dB level (as you did already), but the Distortion tab, so we can see if your subs are in fact struggling at all?

 

[luft262]

Definitely looks better than before at least.

It's easier to read your graphs if you try to keep the Y-axis consistent and at a 50dB window. 45-105dB is the most common. The reason your waterfall looks weird (the wave never "ends") is that your Y-axis is all the way down to 20dB.

So I should do the waterfall with a y-axis of 50db? To do that do I just go into the preferences in the upper right and chante the y-axis value to 50? I'll do that and re-post. I'll post the 20-200Hz with the distortion tab as well.

 

[dasdoing]

So I should do the waterfall with a y-axis of 50db? To do that do I just go into the preferences in the upper right and chante the y-axis value to 50? I'll do that and re-post. I'll post the 20-200Hz with the distortion tab as well.

Do like I said (meassuring the noise waterfall) and try to produce 50dB above it. depending on the the noise this will require a prety loud sweep though

 

[sigbergaudio]

So I should do the waterfall with a y-axis of 50db? To do that do I just go into the preferences in the upper right and chante the y-axis value to 50? I'll do that and re-post. I'll post the 20-200Hz with the distortion tab as well.

The Y-axis (as the X-axis) is a to-from, so two settings. Change it to 45 and 105. So the total span is 50dB (105-45).

 

[luft262]

The Y-axis (as the X-axis) is a to-from, so two settings. Change it to 45 and 105. So the total span is 50dB (105-45).

I believe this is the updated Waterfall graph.

Let me know if I messed something up please!

 

[luft262]

Also, here is 10Hz to 200Hz to better see the subwoofer area.

 

[sigbergaudio]

@luft262 That looks pretty decent and as expected in a normal room. You got a bit of noise (mains noise probably) at 50ish hz, but if it isn't audible / something you have noticed I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[luft262]

Just to update you guys. I got rid of the TV center in my room to make way for a bigger TV. I also got a new AVR (Denon X3700H) and the MultEQ app. Below are my current graphs for my system now.

Here is Denon/Audyssey vs Onkyo overlaid, although it's not apples to apples, because I changed furniture and may have changed the positions of the speakers and subs to a degree. Red is Denon, Bule is Onkyo

Based on the graphs I don't think PB300s will most likely be necessary. I'm already good down to about 10Hz if REW is to be believed and I'm reading it right. I'll probably just stick with the SB3000's. I like the PEQ and phone features too much to go to another brand, also, I think.

Thanks for all the help/input.

 

[Chromatischism]

I'm already good down to about 10Hz

But at what SPL? You can quickly run out of output at 20 Hz and below without multiple strong subs.

 

[luft262]

But at what SPL? You can quickly run out of output at 20 Hz and below without multiple strong subs.

I ran another test. This time at Denon Reference Level, which I think is roughly THX movie theater level. I believe it shoots for an SPL of about 85dB with spikes up to 115 dB. To the best of my knowledge this means an optimal sub for movies would be able to achieve 115dB as low as possible. Below I ran three tests. One was with my subs at about -21dB on the subs, run from 5Hz to 120Hz. This is where I normally run them so that they will achieve about 10bB more output than my main speakers along the curve. Next I ran from 5Hz to 120Hz again, but I increased the output on the subs to -0dB so full power. On the last measurement I ran the subs at 0dB and had the AVR at reference volume, but I ran the test from 5Hz to 20kHz. Below are the results. For some reason the subs did a bit better on the 5Hz to 120Hz test at 0dB than on the 5Hz to 20kHz test. I'm not sure why.

As we can see at reference my speakers are running at about 98dB, which probably explains why I generally watch movies well below reference. Like 30dB below reference. If reference is theoretically 85dB and we want the sub to have a dynamic range up to 115dB that means we need the subs to get up about 30dB above the listening level during spikes. If a normal person is usually watching movies at closer to 65 to 75dB, which is still pretty loud, they would want their subs to get up to 95 to 105dB. Is that correct?

Now that MultEQ-X is out maybe I would be better off with slightly more powerful subs, like the HSU ULS-MK15, which should output about 6dB more at 40Hz and below. Then I could take the money I saved and buy the MultEQ-X program for windows and run it with REW to add all the PEQ filters I want and flatten things out even more?

Maybe I'm over thinking this?

The FOMO is real!

 

[Chromatischism]

Looks like you've done a good job eliminating room issues, but I wonder about your sub response. It is rising towards 100 Hz instead of falling. Is that intentional? It doesn't look like a normal bass response I've seen in a room and it doesn't blend well with your speakers.

Ideally your sub would be 5-10 dB higher at 20 Hz vs 100 Hz or so.