Subwoofer Situation

[Bill Brown]

Does anyone have the prefered curve for home theater? What audio curve should I be shooting for? Thanks.

There are several. The one shown above is a nice start. I wouldn't differentiate between HT and music, either, though for HT a higher level might be fun. My suspicion is that your current levels will prove too much as the initial "this is awesome" wears off. Fun while it lasts, though .

Bill

 

[Bill Brown]

This is actually a misconception. A lot of punch is 30-50hz, and also 50-100hz.

I almost always agree with @sigbergaudio in most areas, , but I perceive 30-50hz more as "rumble," or "room lock," or something like that. 70 hz? Definitely agree.

Bill

 

[sigbergaudio]

I almost always agree with @sigbergaudio in most areas, , but I perceive 30-50hz more as "rumble," or "room lock," or something like that. 70 hz? Definitely agree.

Bill

Hehe.

Here's a pretty good video making the case with some examples where they analyzed the frequency spectrum of movie scenes that you can test:

 

[sigbergaudio]

As you can see from the red graph I did try to flatten the curve below 120 a bit. My receiver doesn't have PEQ so I can only fix my speakers by 1. moving them, 2. changing the crossover, or 3. changing the delay/distance. I haven't done #1 yet and I think you are right that's what I need to do, but it's hard with limited realistic space. Later, when I have time, I'll post the newest graph I made. I was able to get things a little flatter by changing the subs' distance from the 16.5 the AVR auto calibrated it to to 13.5 and by changing the crossover from 80Hz to 100Hz. When I get some free time I'll move some stuff around and see what I can do with that.

Many people online say the SVS PEQ isn't necessary, because you can do all that from the receiver, but as far as I can see there aren't any receivers that offer PEQ just auto calibration. Do you happen to know if that is correct? Because if so a new receiver, like a Denon over my Onkyo might not be as much of an upgrade. I'm sure Audessey will do better than the Onkyo autocalibrate, but without manual PEQ the subs' onboard PEQ will still come in handy.

Thank you for your advice and time.

Most Audyssey receivers (Marantz, Denon) support the MultEQ app that will allow you to add manual EQ to both speakers and subwoofer. The interface is not great especially on small screens, but if you have an ipad it's decent.

You can do things like this:

 

[luft262]

Most Audyssey receivers (Marantz, Denon) support the MultEQ app that will allow you to add manual EQ to both speakers and subwoofer. The interface is not great especially on small screens, but if you have an ipad it's decent.

You can do things like this:

I'm not sure why AVR manufacturers don't include a PEQ, but I'm going to see if my Onkyo at least has a regular EQ I can use and see if moving the speakers and using the EQ can fix some of my problems between 120 and 200 Hz. Thanks for the help. I'll post my results soon.

 

[Sancus]

Most Audyssey receivers (Marantz, Denon) support the MultEQ app that will allow you to add manual EQ to both speakers and subwoofer. The interface is not great especially on small screens, but if you have an ipad it's decent.

The new PC app, MultEQ-X lets you set actual PEQs instead of just modifying that curve. Unfortunately, Denon/Marantz hardware doesn't include fully independent subwoofer channels so it doesn't change the fact you can only set PEQs on both at once.

 

[Nwickliff]

If the Denon is anything like Marantz, it doesn't have separate PEQ and the automatic room correction is Audyssey.

You are better off getting a separate DSP box to correct the subs with MSO prior to running your AVR's automatic room correction. MSO will do a far better job of specifying filters than you could do manually.

There are many options but you should look for a DSP that can insert delay, PEQ's and gain/attenuation for each output independently. Ideally having a minimum of six to eight PEQ per sub channel. This can include those in the sub.
Here is a good place to compare the capabilities of various equalizers https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/equaliser.html

This is no longer true. Denon and Marantz now have a windows app that lets you take FULL control over Audyssey. I literally just repurposed my mini DSP HD because I no longer need it with this app! It's amazing. You can add peq even after it does auto-correction. You can turn off auto-correction or tell it what frequencies you want auto to work on. You can set a room curve with 1 or -1 db tilt, and you can save many different configurations. You can even save FLAT vs REFERENCE settings with different room curves to test the differences on the fly. It's pretty amazing.

https://audyssey.com/MultEQ-X%20User%20Guide.pdf

 

[Slayer]

I have a 3,700 ft cubed, multipurpose living room. My audio system includes: An Onkyo AVR, Aria 926 L/R speakers, (currently no center channel - I always sit in the middle anyway), generic surrounds in the ceiling, and I just got two SVS SB 3000 subs. Previously I was using Polk Audio PSW 10 subs.

I just got the SB 3000's and honestly I've not been impressed. I don't want to sound crazy, because they are much more powerful than my previous Polks (850 watts RMS vs 100 watts and 13 inch drivers instead of 10), but they just don't have as much punch and slam as I thought they would. I appreciate their small size and controlling everything from the app is nice. I do use the the parametric eq they come with. My Onkyo receiver doesn't allow me to go in and do any parametric EQ (only the automatic eq'ing it does in the background with the setup mic). I have REW and a UMIK 1 so I can see that the built in eq on the subs helps me to flatten out the response, but honestly I can't physically hear much of a difference between when they are eq'ed vs un-eq'ed. The graph looks significantly flatter, but it's hard to say I hear a difference. For music I'm running them at -13 db and that blends in wonderfully, so I don't think bigger subs will make much of a difference for music, but for movies they lack some punch and slam in my opinion. I have to say that for $100 each the little Polks were punching way, way above their weight class. The SB 3000's area clearly better, but it's not the same wow factor I felt when going from the Pioneer fs52 towers to the Focal Area 926's, which just blew me out of the water. I guess I expected subs costing 10 times more than my bargain subs to be at least 4 times better, when I might realistically call them twice as good at best.

Because of WAF, and the multipurpose aspect of the room I can't go much bigger so ported subs are probably a no go. I could get HSU ULS 15's and it appears they would be about 6db plus more powerful, but I would lose the eq and ability to control them from the app. I also am not sure if they would be as "tight" and good for music as the SB 3000's. On the other hand, I will eventually get a Denon AVR and then I think I'll have parametric eq for my subs (right?) and the utility of the SVS subs might be less.

Do to room modes etc. I would also like to stick with duals and I can only afford subs around 1K each, roughly.

Any recommendations? Thoughts? Stick with the SB 3000's or send them back and try out the HSU ULS 15's?

Thanks for your help!

While my response may not be scientifically correct per say. I think I can somewhat understand what you are going for.
What I or some might call kick, slam, punch, smack effect for music rides somewhere in the range from 40hz to 120hz.
To achieve this, it helps with the mains having large (12'' or larger) drivers that have a high sensitivity rating.

The best systems I have heard that achieve this, have always had large mains and large PA sub or subs. Now granted most PA subs drop like a rock after 40hz or so, so they are not intended to play back subterranean bass ( which is not needed for the majority of soundtracks anyway). Which is why I added a 18'' EV 1300 watt PA sub to my music system. It just idles along without effort and sounds incredible. While I have 2 other ported hifi subs, if I turn off the 18'' EV, a lot of that effect is gone. While it also helps with the mains having 15'' drivers and compression driver. I position my ported subs in the corners and the 18'' EV PA sub front wall dead center (where you would expect drums and such to be located in music). I can say, I couldn't ask for more kick, punch, slam and what not. Nothing I throw at it ever feels strained. Whether it be at extreme volume or low levels, it just idles along with little effort, My kids and grandkids love it. Constantly bringing someone over to experience it. Of course, your room and placement will have a big influence.

I just think it's hard to get what you are after if your mains have small drivers, and your subs are incapable of high spl's effortlessly.
Most of my friends are also audio junkies. Some have some very expensive systems yet lack what you are looking for. All because they are either stuck with misconceptions about PA sub drivers or afraid the look won't go with the high-end appeal appearance they want.
Those who have come around, I would say are very pleased. Just my two cents.

 

[Nwickliff]

The new PC app, MultEQ-X lets you set actual PEQs instead of just modifying that curve. Unfortunately, Denon/Marantz hardware doesn't include fully independent subwoofer channels so it doesn't change the fact you can only set PEQs on both at once.

beat me to it. I think the biggest thing he is missing is a room curve

 

[Chromatischism]

I almost always agree with @sigbergaudio in most areas, , but I perceive 30-50hz more as "rumble," or "room lock," or something like that. 70 hz? Definitely agree.

Bill

I agree that 40 Hz is really lacking on the chart – that is where kickdrum power mostly comes from, for example. It's too low relative to the midbass and will cause a lack of punch.

 

[raistlin65]

View attachment 178896

My room. Lots of glass...tile floors...opens to kitchen

Does the 3700 cubic ft number you previously shared include the kitchen and any other open areas?

Also, have you considered putting one of the subs directly behind the couch within three feet of your listening position?

 

[luft262]

Does the 3700 cubic ft number you previously shared include the kitchen and any other open areas?

Also, have you considered putting one of the subs directly behind the couch within three feet of your listening position?

It doesn't include the kitchen and other areas. The whole house is open, unless the bedroom doors are closed, which they normally aren't, so by that metric the area would be ginormous. I can't put the sub behind the couch because I'd have to run an extension cord across the room. Never gonna happen

 

[Pdxwayne]

Here is my 20Hz to 20,000Hz measurement. Red is with PEQ and Green is without PEQ. I could lower my subs output to get a flatter response with the speakers, but this is the level that sounds best to my ears. When I Isolate each subwoofer the PEQ looks like it's making a big difference, but when everything is played together it looks less pronounced.

View attachment 178890

And here is 20Hz to 200Hz for a better look at just the subs' frequencies.

View attachment 178891

Any thoughts?

You charts only show below 90db readings.

Can your subs give you 100+dB at your sitting position, down to 20hz?

 

[Bill Brown]

Here's a pretty good video making the case with some examples where they analyzed the frequency spectrum of movie scenes that you can test:

I watched/listened to the video last night. I am not a big HT guy, so a lot of what he looked at are what I think of as "effects." I think of the sounds he demonstrated as "transients then rumbles," or "booms," or low frequency "concussive" effects (not sure how to describe), not analogous to the "kick" of a bass drum in naturally recorded music, which I still think are a bit higher in frequency.

Bill

 

[luft262]

You charts only show below 90db readings.

Can your subs give you 100+dB at your sitting position, down to 20hz?

I can check that tonight, but at that point they would be far more powerful than my mains and would sound quite muddy...

 

[sigbergaudio]

I watched/listened to the video last night. I am not a big HT guy, so a lot of what he looked at are what I think of as "effects." I think of the sounds he demonstrated as "transients then rumbles," or "booms," or low frequency "concussive" effects (not sure how to describe), not analogous to the "kick" of a bass drum in naturally recorded music, which I still think are a bit higher in frequency.

Bill

Yes, kick drums are pretty wide band actually, all the way up in the khz range. But it typically starts at 40-50hz which is still well within the subwoofers range. I guess proper punch means not either or, both the subwoofer AND the rest of the range needs to be in balance and have plenty of capacity.

 

[Pdxwayne]

I can check that tonight, but at that point they would be far more powerful than my mains and would sound quite muddy...

It is not about setting the subs much louder than your mains. No, don't do that.

It is about if the subs can handle high dB demands when handling demanding movie's special effects.

The capabilities to go 100db+ without compression at 20 to 30hz maybe is something you are missing for movies.

It could be your subs can do 50hz at 100db, but can only do 95 dB at 20hz, when giving the same test signal strength.

 

[raistlin65]

It doesn't include the kitchen and other areas. The whole house is open, unless the bedroom doors are closed, which they normally aren't, so by that metric the area would be ginormous. I can't put the sub behind the couch because I'd have to run an extension cord across the room. Never gonna happen

And that could be your problem. The subwoofers interact with the entire space. They don't know what you've chosen to designate as specific living areas.

You could try the sub temporarily behind the couch as an experiment. Just put it right behind the listening position. The reason to do that is if the sub is within 3 ft of the listening position, it negates the room influence. If you find then you're getting the kind of punch you wanted, then you know that you probably don't have enough sub for the space.

 

[luft262]

And that could be your problem. The subwoofers interact with the entire space. They don't know what you've chosen to designate as specific living areas.

You could try the sub temporarily behind the couch as an experiment. Just put it right behind the listening position. The reason to do that is if the sub is within 3 ft of the listening position, it negates the room influence. If you find then you're getting the kind of punch you wanted, then you know that you probably don't have enough sub for the space.

What if I do that and I still don't get the punch I wanted?

 

[Jdunk54nl]

Before you make any big changes, you really need to get your integration of your subs dialed in.

Get a house curve down the best you can.
Get subs and mains crossed over properly.
Get levels of subs and mains appropriate.

Anything else before that is just going to result in you still not being satisfied. If after you do the above, you still don't like it, then make bigger changes.