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Subwoofer Correction via MiniDSP DDRC24 DIRAC

Sprint

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#1
Hi all,

I am currently using Genelec active monitors 8340 LCR & 8330 in 5.2 set up with 2 SVS 12" sb-12nsd subs run by Yamaha AVR. I am using GLM software in Genelecs for room correction.

A few days ago, I started setting up MiniDSP DDRC24 with Dirac Live for subwoofer correction. Since I am still learning on the measurements world, could you please help me with following questions:

1. Attached is the DIRAC correction picture. How do you interpret the target curve given by DIRAC?. Do you see any improvements that can be made? After using DIRAC, I noticed that the bass intensity went down in comparison to not using DIRAC but on the cons the bass was more refined/uniform across frequencies. One can hear that. Looking forward to help from experts who can read/ interpret measurements.

2. Attached is another picture of DDRC24 I am still confused how to know if DIRAC is on from the buttons. It is confusing. Am I correct by saying that Dirac is in use if the button is grey - "DIRAC LIVE OFF" and Dirac is not in use if the button is pink - "Dirac Live On"?

3. As one can see in the measurement, it is measured till 300HZ and then it rolls off. Currently I am setting the speakers as Small with cross over set as 90HZ. But for music, I plan to use Raspberry PI3 with Topping D10s to connect to Genelecs via SPIDF-AES cable and then use a Toslink to connect to subs. In this case the Toslink will carry full range signal. In Genelec GLM, I will set a bass crossover of 90HZ or a high pass filter at 90HZ so that it does not received below 90. On the other hand, should I set a low pass filter of 120HZ in Dirac? Is it necessary or is it ok to send a full range and the subwoofer will automatically start rolling off after 300 HZ.

Here is a pic of my room with Subwoofer set up.

Thanks a lot for the help!
 

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#2
1. Depends on what you are trying to do. That seems like the low frequency portion of the Dirac ‘house’ curve, which has a slightly boosted bass response
2. Dirac is enabled when the button shows in pink
3. What are your low pass and high pass crossover slopes? This would help make a meaningful recommendation.
 

onion

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#3
Can you use DDRC24 with three subs? Is this different to Dirac Live Bass Management?
I wonder if you require two inputs. I thought you could use one input routed to two outputs?
 
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#4
A typical use with subs is 2.2 stereo ie high pass to left and right channel main speakers and low pass to left and right channel subs.

That said, routing from input to output is full mesh, ie you can send any of the input channels to any subset of the output channels. While I have not used it, I believe you can also average the left and right stereo signals and lowpass the exact same signal to the output channels.

If you wanted to connect all 4 outputs to subs (or 3 as you mention), you could. Bear in mind that any DSP will introduce some finite time delay. Therefore, if the signal to the mains follows a different path, you may have to do some additional work to time-align the mains with the subs.

Not used Dirac Bass Management so no informed opinion on it :)
 

Eetu

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#5
I have the 2X4HD but I was wondering is there a reason you're routing both inputs to both outputs? Shouldn't it be, for example, Dirac 1 -> output 1, Dirac 2 -> output 2?
kHJMAme.jpg
 
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#6
There are two input channels and four output channels. You could use these 4 outputs for two mains and two subs (as mentioned above), or as another example use LF and HF to biamp your speakers with digital crossovers. To your point, yes, you could also simply ignore two of the output channels and run pure stereo.
 

Eetu

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#7
There are two input channels and four output channels. You could use these 4 outputs for two mains and two subs (as mentioned above), or as another example use LF and HF to biamp your speakers with digital crossovers. To your point, yes, you could also simply ignore two of the output channels and run pure stereo.
Thanks, yes I'm aware of that. I was referring to OPs setup
Screenshot_20210225_102549.jpg
 
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#8
Hello all,

I have posted this in another thread and got some perspective but I think this may be more appropriate as @Sprint seems to have tested the systems in question.

I currently have a pair of Genelecs 8030, which I love. I recently tested the wonders of Room correction (through Dspeaker Antimode 2.0) and it was a clear improvement in the room: bass bloatness was gone and the music sounded clearly better. It is a living room with no room treatment and at least for now, that is out of the question, so the only option is digital room correction and perhaps a subwoofer.

I am convinced that room correction is the way to go. My shortlist of options are:

1. miniDSP SHD + Genelec 8030 + SVS SB-1000 (2100EUR investment as I have the 8030 already)
2. Genelec 8340 + GLM kit (2700 EUR investment, probably can recover 700-800EUR when selling my 8030, so 2000EUR investment)
a) When adding a subwoofer to option 2, I suppose it needs to be Genelec to make use of GLM, although I see @Sprint uses SVS, how does that work?

Looking forward to hear the opinions on the suggested way to go. Other alternatives are welcome :).
Thanks in advance.-
 

samysound

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#9
Hello all,

I have posted this in another thread and got some perspective but I think this may be more appropriate as @Sprint seems to have tested the systems in question.

I currently have a pair of Genelecs 8030, which I love. I recently tested the wonders of Room correction (through Dspeaker Antimode 2.0) and it was a clear improvement in the room: bass bloatness was gone and the music sounded clearly better. It is a living room with no room treatment and at least for now, that is out of the question, so the only option is digital room correction and perhaps a subwoofer.

I am convinced that room correction is the way to go. My shortlist of options are:

1. miniDSP SHD + Genelec 8030 + SVS SB-1000 (2100EUR investment as I have the 8030 already)
2. Genelec 8340 + GLM kit (2700 EUR investment, probably can recover 700-800EUR when selling my 8030, so 2000EUR investment)
a) When adding a subwoofer to option 2, I suppose it needs to be Genelec to make use of GLM, although I see @Sprint uses SVS, how does that work?

Looking forward to hear the opinions on the suggested way to go. Other alternatives are welcome :).
Thanks in advance.-
Genelec GLM will not work with non-genelec subwoofers. My advice would be to either go full GLM with genelec subs or go full dirac with the minidsp SHD, genelec mains and and svs subs.

I think latter approach (minidspSHD+dirac, svs sub and genelec speakers) will probably be more flexible and dirac appears to be a more sophisticated and powerful room correction algorithm.

However, dirac does not yet have automated subwoofer integration so will not be as easy as setting up GLM with genelec subs.
 
OP
Sprint

Sprint

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Thread Starter #10
Hello all,

I have posted this in another thread and got some perspective but I think this may be more appropriate as @Sprint seems to have tested the systems in question.

I currently have a pair of Genelecs 8030, which I love. I recently tested the wonders of Room correction (through Dspeaker Antimode 2.0) and it was a clear improvement in the room: bass bloatness was gone and the music sounded clearly better. It is a living room with no room treatment and at least for now, that is out of the question, so the only option is digital room correction and perhaps a subwoofer.

I am convinced that room correction is the way to go. My shortlist of options are:

1. miniDSP SHD + Genelec 8030 + SVS SB-1000 (2100EUR investment as I have the 8030 already)
2. Genelec 8340 + GLM kit (2700 EUR investment, probably can recover 700-800EUR when selling my 8030, so 2000EUR investment)
a) When adding a subwoofer to option 2, I suppose it needs to be Genelec to make use of GLM, although I see @Sprint uses SVS, how does that work?

Looking forward to hear the opinions on the suggested way to go. Other alternatives are welcome :).
Thanks in advance.-
@Dathzo: I was in a similar dilemma like yours to choose between SAM and non-SAM speakers. I took the decision based on the following criteria.

  • I wanted to have an endgame SOTA set up. 83XX are newer models than 80XX.
  • 8340 were Class D with more Watts/amp per channel compared to non-SAM 8040 speakers which were Class AB. 8030c is an exception which is Class D.
  • In the future, as and when my finance budget is approved and when I move my speakers to a dedicated room (currently it is living room), I would most likely go for a bigger LCR like 8351 or 8361. In that case, I will move my 8330 to height speakers and 8340 to surrounds.
  • I like Genelec principle and since they are engineering based, I trust them that in the future their GLM will only get better and will not be far behind compared to DIRAC or Audiolense (in my opinion these are the two best DRC software available). On the other hand, I wanted to have the room correction software delinked from AVR. The current YPAO my Yamaha AVR RXV 775 is not that great. In the future, if I go for Denon, I do not want to use Audyssey. All other AVRs based on DIRAC are expensive and I do not want to spend too much on electronics.
  • SAM speakers take digital feed whereas 80XX has only XLR inputs. Currently for 2ch I use Digital feed from Raspberry PI4 via usb -> Topping D10s (SPIDF AES cable) -> Genelec 8340 Front LR. For movies, unfortunately, only Analog via XLR is possible via budget AVRs. I am hoping sometimes in the future, some AVR company will come with digital outs for movies. I should say that I am super amazed by the digital feeds into 8340. I have not even paired with my sub for 2ch digital feed. I am satisfied with the bass of 8340 for my music genre which is mainly classical, jazz, Bollywood/Indian and rarely some pop/Latin/Regaton. This was an advise given by Genelec support to try 8340 as full range without sub. If you are listening to bass heavy music like hip-hop, Electronic, ofcourse it makes sense to pair with subs. In the next days, I will also try pairing with my subs as Topping D10s has an additional Toslink output which I can feed into miniDSP DDRC24.
  • For movies, my SVS subs with miniDSP DDRC24 is doing an excellent job using Dirac Live. Genelec SAM subs are very expensive. In several audio forums I have seen many using two different correction software for speakers and subs. Of course it will be ideal to have one correction software for the entire set up. Sometimes in the future, I may venture into SAM subs or I may even opt for Arendal subs. But at the moment, I am happy with the marriage of Dirac for SVS subs and GLM for SAM speakers. They are playing with cohesion. I may also ask a professional company to see if they see any phase/time issues between Genelecs and SVS but to my ears at this moment, they are playing really well together.
 
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#11
Genelec GLM will not work with non-genelec subwoofers. My advice would be to either go full GLM with genelec subs or go full dirac with the minidsp SHD, genelec mains and and svs subs.

I think latter approach (minidspSHD+dirac, svs sub and genelec speakers) will probably be more flexible and dirac appears to be a more sophisticated and powerful room correction algorithm.

However, dirac does not yet have automated subwoofer integration so will not be as easy as setting up GLM with genelec subs.
Thanks for this. That’s my idea as well
 
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#12
@Dathzo: I was in a similar dilemma like yours to choose between SAM and non-SAM speakers. I took the decision based on the following criteria.

  • I wanted to have an endgame SOTA set up. 83XX are newer models than 80XX.
  • 8340 were Class D with more Watts/amp per channel compared to non-SAM 8040 speakers which were Class AB. 8030c is an exception which is Class D.
  • In the future, as and when my finance budget is approved and when I move my speakers to a dedicated room (currently it is living room), I would most likely go for a bigger LCR like 8351 or 8361. In that case, I will move my 8330 to height speakers and 8340 to surrounds.
  • I like Genelec principle and since they are engineering based, I trust them that in the future their GLM will only get better and will not be far behind compared to DIRAC or Audiolense (in my opinion these are the two best DRC software available). On the other hand, I wanted to have the room correction software delinked from AVR. The current YPAO my Yamaha AVR RXV 775 is not that great. In the future, if I go for Denon, I do not want to use Audyssey. All other AVRs based on DIRAC are expensive and I do not want to spend too much on electronics.
  • SAM speakers take digital feed whereas 80XX has only XLR inputs. Currently for 2ch I use Digital feed from Raspberry PI4 via usb -> Topping D10s (SPIDF AES cable) -> Genelec 8340 Front LR. For movies, unfortunately, only Analog via XLR is possible via budget AVRs. I am hoping sometimes in the future, some AVR company will come with digital outs for movies. I should say that I am super amazed by the digital feeds into 8340. I have not even paired with my sub for 2ch digital feed. I am satisfied with the bass of 8340 for my music genre which is mainly classical, jazz, Bollywood/Indian and rarely some pop/Latin/Regaton. This was an advise given by Genelec support to try 8340 as full range without sub. If you are listening to bass heavy music like hip-hop, Electronic, ofcourse it makes sense to pair with subs. In the next days, I will also try pairing with my subs as Topping D10s has an additional Toslink output which I can feed into miniDSP DDRC24.
  • For movies, my SVS subs with miniDSP DDRC24 is doing an excellent job using Dirac Live. Genelec SAM subs are very expensive. In several audio forums I have seen many using two different correction software for speakers and subs. Of course it will be ideal to have one correction software for the entire set up. Sometimes in the future, I may venture into SAM subs or I may even opt for Arendal subs. But at the moment, I am happy with the marriage of Dirac for SVS subs and GLM for SAM speakers. They are playing with cohesion. I may also ask a professional company to see if they see any phase/time issues between Genelecs and SVS but to my ears at this moment, they are playing really well together.
Thanks @Sprint for the effort and the detailed answer! your Hybrid solution sounds nice, but one of the points I’m looking for is simplicity.
The setup is for the living room, and I would say I use it 90% for music and 10% for movies, but this can change in the future. Considering it and after your careful description, I am leaning towards a set of 8340 to start with, and eventually upgrade with a sub (Genelec or SVS with correction) when needed.
I like the idea of using a Rpi to stream, as I use Roon, and Ropieee has worked great for me.
Again, many thanks for your help here.
 
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Sprint

Sprint

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Thread Starter #13
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#14
@Sprint, that setup of yours looks awesome. I bet it sounds terrific!
Thank you for the link as well, but I don’t get what they mean. if I go your route (Rpi + Topping D10), I guess I can control volume through Roon which should not degrade the signal much I understand. Or are there benefits of routing all through the GLM box?

thanks again!
 
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Sprint

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@Sprint, that setup of yours looks awesome. I bet it sounds terrific!
Thank you for the link as well, but I don’t get what they mean. if I go your route (Rpi + Topping D10), I guess I can control volume through Roon which should not degrade the signal much I understand. Or are there benefits of routing all through the GLM box?

thanks again!
Yeah, am pretty happy the way it sounds especially considering that I have minimalistic treatment via huge couch, curtains, some plants. I still need to add some bass absorbers behind the low board on the front wall and some on the back wall.

Watching movies is great and sometimes I like it even better than the nearby theatres (which are set very loud anyways). My favourite Bluray that made my jaws drop was "Avatar" and my favourite streaming movie that shines in my set up is "Kung Fu Panda" from Netflix and "Lord of the Rings" from Amazon Prime video.

I have a dedicated listening room which has a DIY open baffle speaker (similar to pure audio project) but after I got Genelecs, I do not listen much to my open baffle speaker anymore.

For 2ch set up: Currently I not using GLM wireless volume controller. I use Picoreplayer + LMS in RPI4. I use iPENG app on my iPad which recognises Picoreplayer. Alternatively I sometimes use material skin plugin of LMS. I have given my Qobuz credentials in LMS. The Qobuz is shown both in iPENG and material skin. All the features like favourites, personal playlist is available in the Qobuz section of the iPENG app/material skin. I do the volume control digitally on the IPENG app. The Topping D10s shows the sample rates as well. I am able to get both CD (44.1KHZ) and Hi-Res (96 - 192 KHZ) of Qobuz displayed in the Topping D10s display screen (I love this feature of topping). I was toying the idea of getting to Roon but first wanted to try without Roon. the

I have ordered the GLM wireless volume remote. I will try next week by maximising the volume in iPENG and use the GLM wireless volume remote for volume up/down. I can then confirm if there is an improvement in the sound quality (due to maximising digital input). The only issue with this remote is that I cannot switch groups (with different measurements) without connecting to a computer. However controlling volume does not need a computer connection thankfully.
 
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#16
Yeah, am pretty happy the way it sounds especially considering that I have minimalistic treatment via huge couch, curtains, some plants. I still need to add some bass absorbers behind the low board on the front wall and some on the back wall.

Watching movies is great and sometimes I like it even better than the nearby theatres (which are set very loud anyways). My favourite Bluray that made my jaws drop was "Avatar" and my favourite streaming movie that shines in my set up is "Kung Fu Panda" from Netflix and "Lord of the Rings" from Amazon Prime video.

I have a dedicated listening room which has a DIY open baffle speaker (similar to pure audio project) but after I got Genelecs, I do not listen much to my open baffle speaker anymore.

For 2ch set up: Currently I not using GLM wireless volume controller. I use Picoreplayer + LMS in RPI4. I use iPENG app on my iPad which recognises Picoreplayer. Alternatively I sometimes use material skin plugin of LMS. I have given my Qobuz credentials in LMS. The Qobuz is shown both in iPENG and material skin. All the features like favourites, personal playlist is available in the Qobuz section of the iPENG app/material skin. I do the volume control digitally on the IPENG app. The Topping D10s shows the sample rates as well. I am able to get both CD (44.1KHZ) and Hi-Res (96 - 192 KHZ) of Qobuz displayed in the Topping D10s display screen (I love this feature of topping). I was toying the idea of getting to Roon but first wanted to try without Roon. the

I have ordered the GLM wireless volume remote. I will try next week by maximising the volume in iPENG and use the GLM wireless volume remote for volume up/down. I can then confirm if there is an improvement in the sound quality (due to maximising digital input). The only issue with this remote is that I cannot switch groups (with different measurements) without connecting to a computer. However controlling volume does not need a computer connection thankfully.
Thank you again! I took a look at the picoreplayer + ipeng app and it looks super neat. Not sure if Roon is any better. I have a music library of my own but I basically use Qobuz for playing music, so worth to give it a try. my current ropieee solution is bulletproof, which I like.

That’s a nice experiment that you will do. digital volume control nowadays should, in principle, not degrade the sound, but it depends on the implementation. Looking forward to reading about your testing results.

Happy Easter!
 

Tangband

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#17
Yeah, am pretty happy the way it sounds especially considering that I have minimalistic treatment via huge couch, curtains, some plants. I still need to add some bass absorbers behind the low board on the front wall and some on the back wall.

Watching movies is great and sometimes I like it even better than the nearby theatres (which are set very loud anyways). My favourite Bluray that made my jaws drop was "Avatar" and my favourite streaming movie that shines in my set up is "Kung Fu Panda" from Netflix and "Lord of the Rings" from Amazon Prime video.

I have a dedicated listening room which has a DIY open baffle speaker (similar to pure audio project) but after I got Genelecs, I do not listen much to my open baffle speaker anymore.

For 2ch set up: Currently I not using GLM wireless volume controller. I use Picoreplayer + LMS in RPI4. I use iPENG app on my iPad which recognises Picoreplayer. Alternatively I sometimes use material skin plugin of LMS. I have given my Qobuz credentials in LMS. The Qobuz is shown both in iPENG and material skin. All the features like favourites, personal playlist is available in the Qobuz section of the iPENG app/material skin. I do the volume control digitally on the IPENG app. The Topping D10s shows the sample rates as well. I am able to get both CD (44.1KHZ) and Hi-Res (96 - 192 KHZ) of Qobuz displayed in the Topping D10s display screen (I love this feature of topping). I was toying the idea of getting to Roon but first wanted to try without Roon. the

I have ordered the GLM wireless volume remote. I will try next week by maximising the volume in iPENG and use the GLM wireless volume remote for volume up/down. I can then confirm if there is an improvement in the sound quality (due to maximising digital input). The only issue with this remote is that I cannot switch groups (with different measurements) without connecting to a computer. However controlling volume does not need a computer connection thankfully.
Im looking forward to hear how the Genelec GLM remote is working . Im about to buy one for myself.

I drive my Genelec 8340 with digital signal from my Yamaha wxc50 , using the 48 bit volume control in ” pre amp mode ” in the Yamaha.

Yamaha use sample rate conversion with pre amp enabled and puts out everything digitaly at 48 KHz.
I dont know if it sounds worse than other solutions that has 44,1 kHz output. Im happy to read about your experiments with rasberry pi.

In GLM , I have turned down the internal digital volume control om my genelecs to -25 dB. That volume control works after the dsp filtrering in the genelecs. In that way, max volume from digital out from Yamaha wxc50 is loud enough, maximising the bits put into the genelecs.

Maybe the sound would be even better with the digital remote control from Genelec and a digital drive with max digital input ?

Looking forward what you hear when you get the GLM remote control
 
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Sprint

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Im looking forward to hear how the Genelec GLM remote is working . Im about to buy one for myself.

I drive my Genelec 8340 with digital signal from my Yamaha wxc50 , using the 48 bit volume control in ” pre amp mode ” in the Yamaha.

Yamaha use sample rate conversion with pre amp enabled and puts out everything digitaly at 48 KHz.
I dont know if it sounds worse than other solutions that has 44,1 kHz output. Im happy to read about your experiments with rasberry pi.

In GLM , I have turned down the internal digital volume control om my genelecs to -25 dB. That volume control works after the dsp filtrering in the genelecs. In that way, max volume from digital out from Yamaha wxc50 is loud enough, maximising the bits put into the genelecs.

Maybe the sound would be even better with the digital remote control from Genelec and a digital drive with max digital input ?

Looking forward what you hear when you get the GLM remote control
I just received the Genelec wireless remote control yesterday. Prior to setting up the remote, I was using 20% volume on my IPAD running LMS/iPENG for Qobuz. The Genelecs were set to 0 DB in GLM. The set up was same for analog feed via XLR and digital feed via AES from Raspberry PI. Then I connected the GLM adapter to my front LR 8340's. The GLM adapter immediately identified the wireless remote and connected to it. Then switched on Raspberry PI feeding usb signal to Topping D10s. Initially there was no volume with the default volume of the remote out of the box. Then I increased the volume on iPAD to 100%. Then the speakers were live and my boy the sound was fantastic. So with full volume of Digital feed the sound is different and fantastic than 20% volume. I still need to introduce a new preset for my miniDSP which gets Toslink from Topping D10s for subs. This is because the volume of the subwoofers in miniDSP needs different setting for Analog inout from AVR and digital input from Topping. But then this is an exercise for next week.

By the way, from Qobuz I am able to get full 24/192 KHZ via Raspberry PI/Topping D10s (it has nice display to show the sample rate).

In conclusion, the Genelec wireless remote is worth it. Especially in my case where I am using only one measurement for both analog and digital feed in my Genelec speakers. I would propose if it is possible for you to try it and return it if you do not find it useful.
 

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#19
I have an off-topic question.

you have 25 dB error (+/-12 dB) in your response prior to Dirac. I was wondering where did your place your two subwoofers?

I don't have much experience in this, but if you place them in diagonally opposite corners of the room then you should literally counteract all standing waves except the second harmonic.
 
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Sprint

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I have an off-topic question.

you have 25 dB error (+/-12 dB) in your response prior to Dirac. I was wondering where did your place your two subwoofers?

I don't have much experience in this, but if you place them in diagonally opposite corners of the room then you should literally counteract all standing waves except the second harmonic.
my two subs are still in the front. one in a corner and another one to the other side which is open to the dining area. Here is the pic. I am relying on DIRAC to correct the 12 db peak between 20-40 HZ and 9 db dip between 50-60 HZ. Unfortunately the picture does not show it correctly as it is showing only one sub. Next week I will post the picture of the second sub as well.

unfortunately I am unable to run RCA cables to the opposite end of the room to place the subwoofer diagonally opposite to each other. with respect to big peak

I do have a pair XLRs running via a small tunnel running around the sides of the room but it has space only for two XLRs unfortunately. I am looking for a wireless option for the sub. but the SVS wireless module measured badly by Amir. Hence I am waiting for a better measured RCA wireless option. once available, I can experiment moving one of the sub to the diagonally opposite side. An other option is that my wife wants to replace the subs with white colored ones during the next couple of years. In that case, I may look for Arendal or Nubert subs and see if they have wireless option. At the end, I am still not a big fan of wireless stuff as something tells me that it will not play clean.
 

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