Studio mains - soundstage depth?

[ppataki]

In the 'hi-fi' world they say that the more you move your speakers away from the front wall the deeper the soundstage will become
That seems to be true, I have tried it in my living room and definitely there is more '3D' when I move them further away from the front wall towards the middle of the room

But the question is: the main monitors in studios are flush mounted meaning that there is close to zero distance between the speaker and the front wall
I know this is useful since it:
- eliminates edge diffraction
- eliminates SBIR

But what about soundstage depth? Or it does not matter when mixing/mastering in a studio?

I would appreciate any insights about this
Thank you

 

[polmuaddib]

That soundstage depth is an illusion and your perception of it might be enforced by the physical space between speakers and front wall.
Though, there are reflections from the front wall that factor in, but I am not sure if it is crucial for the illusion.

 

[Webninja]

Have you had a chance to measure the frequency response at the MLP with different speakers distances?

Could be you find some clues in the data that indicates why you perceive the depth in soundstage, or maybe not. But interesting to find out.

My Neumanns are almost flush against the wall, per manufacturers suggestion.

 

[ppataki]

That soundstage depth is an illusion and your perception of it might be enforced by the physical space between speakers and front wall.
Though, there are reflections from the front wall that factor in, but I am not sure if it is crucial for the illusion.

Does this mean that the depth that we sense is not on the recording but is 'generated' by the room (reflections from the front wall)?

 

[ppataki]

Have you had a chance to measure the frequency response at the MLP with different speakers distances?

Could be you find some clues in the data that indicates why you perceive the depth in soundstage, or maybe not. But interesting to find out.

My Neumanns are almost flush against the wall, per manufacturers suggestion.

I am planning to do such measurements either next week or the week after. I will post them here

 

[Mart68]

Does this mean that the depth that we sense is not on the recording but is 'generated' by the room (reflections from the front wall)?

No it is on the recording, variation in the relative levels of the instruments in the mix will give the illusion that some are further back than others.

 

[ppataki]

No it is on the recording, variation in the relative levels of the instruments in the mix will give the illusion that some are further back than others.

But if your speakers are flush mounted, will you sense that depth still?
And if your speakers are furter away from the front wall then this depth becomes larger - so where is the 'truth'?

Shall we flush mount or shall we move the speakers away from the front wall to hear the 'real' depth that the engineer wanted to put in the recording?

 

[Mart68]

But if your speakers are flush mounted, will you sense that depth still?
And if your speakers are furter away from the front wall then this depth becomes larger - so where is the 'truth'?

Shall we flush mount or shall we move the speakers away from the front wall to hear the 'real' depth that the engineer wanted to put in the recording?

I don't know as I've never really understood how soffit mounting works despite scouring the internet for an explanation, but I'm sure someone here does.

 

[LTig]

I don't know as I've never really understood how soffit mounting works despite scouring the internet for an explanation, but I'm sure someone here does.

Soffit mounting prevents reflections from the back wall which leads to cancellations and peaks of multiple frequencies in the resulting frequency response at the listening position.

 

[bo_knows]

But if your speakers are flush mounted, will you sense that depth still?
And if your speakers are furter away from the front wall then this depth becomes larger - so where is the 'truth'?

Shall we flush mount or shall we move the speakers away from the front wall to hear the 'real' depth that the engineer wanted to put in the recording?

Excellent question. I'm wondering the same. I know the audiophile answer which is speakers need room to "breath". But where is the science behind the depth of the soundstage illusion? Genelec the world leader of monitors, says you can place speakers fairly close to the front wall. Same with D&D 8C. So what kind of illusion of soundstage depth those monitors can create being so close to the front wall?

 

[Mart68]

Soffit mounting prevents reflections from the back wall which leads to cancellations and peaks of multiple frequencies in the resulting frequency response at the listening position.

Thanks. It's possible then that having the speakers a long distance from the wall behind them will also reduce such reflections and the associated peaks and troughs?

 

[bo_knows]

Soffit mounting prevents reflections from the back wall which leads to cancellations and peaks of multiple frequencies in the resulting frequency response at the listening position.

Which range of frequencies? I could see it for the bass region but depending on the speaker design, I would assume there would be some high and mid frequencies diffractions from the front baffle of the speaker. No?

 

[bo_knows]

I don't know as I've never really understood how soffit mounting works despite scouring the internet for an explanation, but I'm sure someone here does.

Here's some additional info but it doesn't cover OPs question about the soundstage depth illusion.

Monitors that are traditional ‘square box type’ designs benefit from soffit mounting for the following reasons:

* Edge diffraction is eliminated so the midrange is smoother.
* Eliminates the cancellation reflection from the wall behind the monitor.
* Acoustical loading is increased so the monitor does not have to work as hard at low frequencies.

Benefits and methods of soffit mounting studio monitors. | Sweetwater

Check out the Benefits and methods of soffit mounting studio monitors. page at Sweetwater — the world's leading music technology and instrument retailer!

www.sweetwater.com

 

[DSJR]

Front wall (back wall - behind the speakers to me )

As I understood it, having speakers too close to the wall behind them adds to bass (boy, does it add to the bass with some 'porty' boxes ) and reflections can smear up perceived stereo imaging. I can't speak with any authority at all about soffit mounting but I believe it helps as explained above. We can't do this usually at home, so for some speaker types, free space mounting as far away as possible from walls is the preferred compromise.

I used to like pro speaker models of old because I always felt the bass somewhat better quality and less 'port boomy' to me if that makes any sense. Modern speakers with more contemporary measurement techniques do seem better though in the bass than the port-laden boom (or no bass at all) we Brits were so often subjected to, at least in the mid market models.

 

[bo_knows]

In the 'hi-fi' world they say that the more you move your speakers away from the front wall the deeper the soundstage will become
That seems to be true, I have tried it in my living room and definitely there is more '3D' when I move them further away from the front wall towards the middle of the room

But the question is: the main monitors in studios are flush mounted meaning that there is close to zero distance between the speaker and the front wall
I know this is useful since it:
- eliminates edge diffraction
- eliminates SBIR

But what about soundstage depth? Or it does not matter when mixing/mastering in a studio?

I would appreciate any insights about this
Thank you

From what I read, the more linear frequency response, the more "forward" sound will be and I'm not sure how this affects the soundstage depth illusion. I don't think it would increase it.
This could be one of the reasons for the BBC dip around the 2khz range. Just guessing here...

 

[fineMen]

But if your speakers are flush mounted, will you sense that depth still?
And if your speakers are furter away from the front wall then this depth becomes larger - so where is the 'truth'?

Shall we flush mount or shall we move the speakers away from the front wall to hear the 'real' depth that the engineer wanted to put in the recording?

Imagine the soundstage to be an airport hangar. Terribly reflective. By what would that scene be comparable to the distance of the speakers to any wall in Your home? Another soundstage, let's imagine a Hawaiian beach. Same question, no reflections this time.

In the other direction, what about a flute compared to an upright bass, or simply a female versus a male speaker?

Toole mentions a few effects, e/g that the bigger room always wins. If the room 'in the recording' is larger, it will override the sense of the smaller room the listener is in.

Lots of research, only little useful outcome. The recipes from the usual suspects, You name it.

One thing I assume can be taken for granted. People get accustomed to a certain reflection pattern. In case You push the speakers back and forth, there will be effect, because that pattern is changed. To then evaluate the new situation hastily may mislead.

Flush mouted speakers need dramatically different equalization. Again, all this is not complicated but somehow undecided.

A revealing personal test would be to darken the room in question completely. No light no see, no exceptions, no excuses. That would answer one and the other question.

 

[dasdoing]

the "correct" way to make a room sound bigger than it is is using difusion on the backwall. and many studios use it.
btw: mains are not the mains in studios lol. many studios wont have mains anymore. if they have they are used to impress clients

 

[bo_knows]

I think I got the answer that we are looking for.
The answer is in how the loudspeaker deals with the room reflections.
Soundstage "clues" (space, where the musicians are playing), are part of the signal (if recorded that way).
Our brain takes that signal from the speakers and recreates the illusion of the soundstage depth.
If the speaker is designed to deal with the early reflections (D&D8c and Kii 3 via cardioid), it will be able to create soundstage depth even if it's placed close to the front wall (wall behind the speakers).
Regular design speakers when moved from the front and sidewall have delayed first reflections and we hear the improvement in the soundstage. I would think in a proper studio setup, a properly flush-mounted monitor (horn-loaded like JBL and such designs) with control directivity, and liner FR should be able to accurately reproduce the signal that has the clues for the space where the music was recorded. So, the answer to your and my question is that it's possible to create soundstage depth with certain speakers that are close to the front wall or flush-mounted in the studio. I would think the key is in the mostly flat on-axis response (direct signal) and control directivity being measured in the main listening position. Easier said than done.

I forgot to say, that monitors need to extend pretty deep in the bass region (dipper the better) since there could be some hall effects like AC, foot stomps, bass reverberation from instruments, and the underground trains. All this is could be part of the recording and if replayed well, it will convey the size of the recording space which we hear as the soundstage depth.

 

[fineMen]

I think I got the answer that we are looking for.
The answer is in how the loudspeaker deals with the room reflections.
(D&D8c and Kii 3 via cardioid)

Suggestion: Frank Zappa, "Thing Fish" (explicit!)

It sports at times a few overlayed soundstages, as to create a musical theatre with transparent walls in between the simultaneously playing scenes.
I don't feel any drawbacks from the particular set-up of the speakers. It is clearly "over there". Over headphone not as good due to in-head localization.

In general I think the "soundstage" thing gets a bit overhyped. Something to chase after, never caught. It easily flips out of hand every other second. So it keeps people in a state of eternal unsatisfied desire. It's neither You nor the stereo mostly, or me, it's the concept's flaws.

As the above mentioned piece shows, it can be had, but not in a sense of realism.

 

[Duke]

But if your speakers are flush mounted, will you sense that depth still?

Yes.

In the playback room there is a "competition" between the venue cues on the recording and the "small room signature" cues of the playback room. Flush mounting eliminates the early reflection off the wall behind the speakers, which is a significant "small room" cue, particularly when it comes to soundstage depth.

And if your speakers are further away from the front wall then this depth becomes larger - so where is the 'truth'?

Pulling the speakers further away from the front wall pushes that reflection back in time, and the later it arrives the weaker the "small room signature" cues that it conveys. Diffusing that reflection also helps, as does deliberately re-directing it away from the sweet spot. Absorbtion is imo the last resort because it degrades the spectral balance of the reflection field in the room, but often it is still a net improvement. Diffusion arguably also degrades the spectral balance of the reflection field, but only a little bit.