Best way to deal with a highly asymmetrical room?

[kemmler3D]

Thanks for the comments all, this mostly confirms what I already suspected, but @tmuikku has given me more enthusiasm for setting up the speakers across the corner from time to time. I think that should sound pretty good, and since the LS60s are wireless, and because the room has a truly excessive number of electrical outlets, it will be easy to shift the setup back and forth once in a while.

I don't have the option of choosing narrower-dispersion speakers (the LS60s are already paid for and shipping out soon) but AFAIK the KEF stuff is more moderate-width than ultra-wide so it could be worse.

It's too bad plants don't really do anything because we have tons of those. I imagine they do work to scatter treble over 10khz, maybe.

I will also lobby for getting a custom-printed absorber for the right wall. I guess if we're going to have an art print there, there's no reason it can't also be an absorber. We'll see if that passes the WAF sniff test.

What's the generally accepted lower frequency that's important for stereo image? I know that <200hz becomes less localized, but is there a reference on the relative importance of frequencies to localization? Is 500-600hz still worthwhile here?

I personally think QRD panels look cool, even though I realize they're somewhat suboptimal, so if I could design one that worked low enough (doubtful, the 3D printer maxes out at around 600hz ~ 250mm) that would be nice.

There are also "deep subwavelength" diffusers that can be 3D printed, but I don't know of any general method for designing them, I've just seen papers describing them.

 

[Bjorn]

High effect down to 500 Hz is a compromise that's ok. But don't take measurement graphs for granted. NRC measurements are quite useless, and most data are showing the effect in large acoustic rooms with true reverberation and is applicable to small rooms. Unless it's a Broadsorber the thickness would need to be minimum 3".

Diffusers used for fairly early reflections should work effectively till at least 10KHz. Or you start hearing discrete reflections. A standard QRD doesn't do that.

 

[kemmler3D]

High effect down to 500 Hz is a compromise that's ok. But don't take measurement graphs for granted. NRC measurements are quite useless, and most data are showing the effect in large acoustic rooms with true reverberation and is applicable to small rooms. Unless it's a Broadsorber the thickness would need to be minimum 3".

Diffusers used for fairly early reflections should work effectively till at least 10KHz. Or you start hearing discrete reflections. A standard QRD doesn't do that.

Hmm, getting up to 10khz should be doable with an N=101 QRD. I would say that's not quite standard... they go for $10K+ when you can find them.

Still, when it comes to 3D printing, an N101 is not much worse than N67 or N19 for that matter, it just takes a little longer for the printer to finish. Put a whack of paint on it and call it good, because there's no way I'm sanding all of those surfaces individually...

Looks like they can be effective in theory from around 600hz up to 17khz... sadly a bit above what I can hear. They don't look as bad as I expected. But since these are rarely built or deployed, I am even less sure about whether the practice matches theory. What do you think, if WAF somehow coincides with an exotic diffuser, should I go for it?

 

[Duke]

Another way to deal with such an imbalance is using speakers with super narrow horizontal directivity.

Ime ^^this^^ works better than relying on aggressive acoustic treatment on the one side of the room. A good narrow-pattern speaker is arguably asymmetrical-room-friendly right out of the box.

 

[kemmler3D]

Ime ^^this^^ works better than relying on aggressive acoustic treatment on the one side of the room. A good narrow-pattern speaker is arguably asymmetrical-room-friendly right out of the box.

While true, the UPS truck is bringing a pair of LS60s sometime early next week. I don't think anyone's published spins, but they probably aren't particularly narrow. (well, they're really narrow, but I mean the dispersion pattern.)

This is not quite as permanent as a tattoo... but I'm not likely to get better speakers approved as part of the decor.

 

[Blumlein 88]

While true, the UPS truck is bringing a pair of LS60s sometime early next week. I don't think anyone's published spins, but they probably aren't particularly narrow. (well, they're really narrow, but I mean the dispersion pattern.)

This is not quite as permanent as a tattoo... but I'm not likely to get better speakers approved as part of the decor.

Maybe you should decide you are installing a full Atmos system. After lots of planning and debate, then finally settle for just re-orienting the room.

 

[ahofer]

at the end of the week, which is almost all happy news when it comes to my audio setup, because I managed to sneak some LS60s and KC62s into the furniture budget

So much winning.

 

[kemmler3D]

Maybe you should decide you are installing a full Atmos system. After lots of planning and debate, then finally settle for just re-orienting the room.

This negotiation tactic is 50-50. 50% likely to work and 50% likely to get me shot into the sun strapped to a rocket. One condition of getting the LS60s was a permanent injuction against talking about speakers in her presence ever again.

In happier news, I sent my wife a picture of an N101 panel with "what do you think of this wall art, I think it's neat" and her response was "I'm not positive about it". I think I can work with that. It wasn't an outright no.

I think if I started with "how about this acoustic treatment" it would have gone worse.

 

[tmuikku]

Cheez if sound was only about acoustics. It is a nice thread in a way, showing realistic and practical side of the hobby and why small poor sounding speakers dominate sales, while good sounding big ones are only for rare, who have luxury to have dedicated time and place in their life.

 

[Bjorn]

Hmm, getting up to 10khz should be doable with an N=101 QRD. I would say that's not quite standard... they go for $10K+ when you can find them.

Still, when it comes to 3D printing, an N101 is not much worse than N67 or N19 for that matter, it just takes a little longer for the printer to finish. Put a whack of paint on it and call it good, because there's no way I'm sanding all of those surfaces individually...

Looks like they can be effective in theory from around 600hz up to 17khz... sadly a bit above what I can hear. They don't look as bad as I expected. But since these are rarely built or deployed, I am even less sure about whether the practice matches theory. What do you think, if WAF somehow coincides with an exotic diffuser, should I go for it?

Diffusion is fine if you do at both side walls (symmetrically) and for reflections arriving later than 7ms. But it's not the right choice IMO for only one side wall when there's an opening to the other side. RPG Modffractal isn't that expensive, especially in only MDF paint ready. It's the best diffuser I've ever tested, and I've tried a lot.

 

[Blumlein 88]

This negotiation tactic is 50-50. 50% likely to work and 50% likely to get me shot into the sun strapped to a rocket. One condition of getting the LS60s was a permanent injuction against talking about speakers in her presence ever again.

In happier news, I sent my wife a picture of an N101 panel with "what do you think of this wall art, I think it's neat" and her response was "I'm not positive about it". I think I can work with that. It wasn't an outright no.

I think if I started with "how about this acoustic treatment" it would have gone worse.

Well I could have suggested recreating those sidewall reflections. Put a speaker in the middle of the left hand opening. Put a microphone next to it. Rebroadcast what the microphone picks up pointed back at the listening position. Adjust until both sides sound as similar as possible. Yeah just a first order attempt, but well, probably going to get a no on it too.

 

[Bjorn]

Ime ^^this^^ works better than relying on aggressive acoustic treatment on the one side of the room. A good narrow-pattern speaker is arguably asymmetrical-room-friendly right out of the box.

I don't disagree with that. But not many speakers do that with a broadband directivity. Speakers that are typically very narrow above 1kHz and get's wider below isn't a good solution IMO since reflections below 1 kHz are still very audible. So you end up with a colored result and those speakers generally don't measure very even in the room either. I fine wide and constant much better than those.

You basically have the option of planar speakers but where you'll be sending half the energy backwards and not with the greatest dynamics. Or very large horn speakers that most can't accomadate in a living room.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

Plants don't diffuse.... Slats don't either but cause a serious of specular reflections. Slats are ok to remove flutter echo for speech and minimize general noise issues, but is a rather poor treatment for music.

To clarify and extend my comments.

I was not suggesting slats for diffusion, but rather to direct 1st reflections so that 3rd etc. reflections were less problematic.

Plants, that's 100% on me. I should have been more specific. Plants are not effective diffusers in general. However, plants with more and thicker stalks/stems can be. A 7' lily, no. A 7' stand of bamboo, definitely will have an effect. So will a 7' tall conifer, like a Christmas tree, which from my experience does alter the sound that passes through it (before being decorated, more so after.)

 

[gumblag]

I would move into your new home first. Set up your equipement and listen, move the devices around until you find the sweetspot(s). Then decide whether treatment is needed and what kind of treatment you would like. I would get information about any acoustical problems in the room first, using my ears and measurements and then decide whether to spend money on room treatment.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

Thanks for the comments all, this mostly confirms what I already suspected, but @tmuikku has given me more enthusiasm for setting up the speakers across the corner from time to time. I think that should sound pretty good, and since the LS60s are wireless, and because the room has a truly excessive number of electrical outlets, it will be easy to shift the setup back and forth once in a while.

After thinking, I do think the corner location is the best for the space.

As someone who does move things, a lot, two suggestions. If you have a patterned rug, take note of your locations, and key them to the pattern. That makes it easy to relocate to the same spot without tape or other markings. Second, make sure you have a place to sit for both locations that does not require moving furniture. Because that will get old, fast.

 

[EJ3]

I have a female friend that apparently moves her furniture every time she does her monthly deep cleaning.
If you go there on the 29th of a month and again on the 3rd of the following month, about 80% of the furnishings in her home are in a different location.

 

[kemmler3D]

To clarify and extend my comments.

I was not suggesting slats for diffusion, but rather to direct 1st reflections so that 3rd etc. reflections were less problematic.

Plants, that's 100% on me. I should have been more specific. Plants are not effective diffusers in general. However, plants with more and thicker stalks/stems can be. A 7' lily, no. A 7' stand of bamboo, definitely will have an effect. So will a 7' tall conifer, like a Christmas tree, which from my experience does alter the sound that passes through it (before being decorated, more so after.)

Angled reflector slats are actually not that bad of an idea, as long as I'm able to get the angles just right. A faster 3D printing project than the QRD to be sure. If I can get the first reflections to all go straight past the LP to the back wall then it might help even things out. There won't be many coherent first reflections coming from the left, so intuitively this makes sense.

Perhaps a series of angled slats hidden behind an acoustically transparent art print...

I would move into your new home first. Set up your equipement and listen, move the devices around until you find the sweetspot(s). Then decide whether treatment is needed and what kind of treatment you would like. I would get information about any acoustical problems in the room first, using my ears and measurements and then decide whether to spend money on room treatment.

Very practical advice, thank you.

After thinking, I do think the corner location is the best for the space.

As someone who does move things, a lot, two suggestions. If you have a patterned rug, take note of your locations, and key them to the pattern. That makes it easy to relocate to the same spot without tape or other markings. Second, make sure you have a place to sit for both locations that does not require moving furniture. Because that will get old, fast.

Also nice practical advice, thanks. We are probably getting an L-shaped couch so there will be a nice place to sit in either case, with luck.

Also, I wanted to say that this thread probably makes my wife sound very strict, and me a victim of WAF-creep. It's really quite the opposite. I have a whole other room (office) to myself where I can do whatever I like, and position things however they sound best. (someday, I think something based on the Purifi 8" in there for nearfield.)

The reality is I got an unexpected windfall in the living room, that I didn't have to settle for a soundbar or something really tiny to preserve the look of the place. So this thread is more about how to maximize that despite suboptimal positioning.

Shifting over to the corner for focused listening is a pretty good plan B considering the system is wireless.

 

[gumblag]

Angled reflector slats are actually not that bad of an idea, as long as I'm able to get the angles just right. A faster 3D printing project than the QRD to be sure. If I can get the first reflections to all go straight past the LP to the back wall then it might help even things out. There won't be many coherent first reflections coming from the left, so intuitively this makes sense.

Perhaps a series of angled slats hidden behind an acoustically transparent art print...



Very practical advice, thank you.

Also nice practical advice, thanks. We are probably getting an L-shaped couch so there will be a nice place to sit in either case, with luck.

Also, I wanted to say that this thread probably makes my wife sound very strict, and me a victim of WAF-creep. It's really quite the opposite. I have a whole other room (office) to myself where I can do whatever I like, and position things however they sound best. (someday, I think something based on the Purifi 8" in there for nearfield.)

The reality is I got an unexpected windfall in the living room, that I didn't have to settle for a soundbar or something really tiny to preserve the look of the place. So this thread is more about how to maximize that despite suboptimal positioning.

Shifting over to the corner for focused listening is a pretty good plan B considering the system is wireless.

I got two HiFi systems, one in the living room, far field, and one om my desk, near field, for my computer. The desk is in the same space as the HiFi of the living room, be it in a different location against the same wall as the far field system but five meters away from it. The near field system is a KEF LSX II, without subwoofer. Although I did try the SVS 3000 Micro subwoofer, I normally use for far field in my living room, to find that the KEF LSX II including a subwoofer is a very good hifi sytem for mid field and near field listening. Since the app KEF Connect can serve different KEF speaker systems, you have more possibillities.
Another idea might be a mobile screen or even a mobile bookcase to create the optimum listening position when wanted instead of moving your speaker system around? just some more thoughts.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

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I tried asymmetrical in my living room, with similar issues as you face wall wise. I found it very good... for one single listening position. But not for two or three, the sound stage was very sensitive to movement side to side. I knew that would happen, but could not for the life of me get things to work for more than one narrow position. So I went back to what I had before.

So if you want one spot, corner placement for sure. If you want 2? I would say couch where it is, two chairs to define the "media room space", speakers on the right wall will work better. Were this my space, I would like to be able to move 2 chairs to open things up for a party, or move a couple seats for media for more people. If you try this, you will want to sit with ears inside the "media room" space. Because weird things will happen as you back up from that point, due to losing stereo left wall reflections.

When you have a chance, let us know how things are going! New place, lots of work, but I hope to hear an update when you have time and some experience playing with your sound.

 

[tmuikku]

Yeah, sounds like you found yourself nearfield in terms of audible critical distance, where effects of early reflections are greatly reduced from perception

Take note on the sound, that is close what studio control rooms "nearfield monitoring" offer and what the people in recording/mixing situation listen to a lot. Nearfield the sweetspot can be quite small (sideways) as early reflections do not blur/bloat the sound too much and it's now obvious the collapse happens if you move sideways, also speaker directivity and toe in becomes obvious and very important. This is something else than most home hifi setups seem to have, where sound is heavily influenced by early reflections, low DI speakers with no toe-in and long listening distance, short and loud lateral first early reflections "to widen the stage". Collapse is not so obvious there, but the sound is blurry in general. Difference to a control room is that they might have better envelopment as well, in addition to the great early reflection free perception of "direct sound". At home, one can maximize envelopment as well, by positioning and utilizing directivity and toe-in.

Anyway, also on the corner/nearfield setup two or more people can enjoy good sound, everyone just needs to be equidistant from speakers so sit one behind another, which is as conventional as the corner setup itself

To achieve bigger sweetspot sideways before sound collapses to closest speaker, rather constant and rather high DI speakers are needed for proper time/intensity trading, and of course toe-in to make it happen. This is where you'd greatly benefit from constant directivity speaker.

Well, nothing is perfect, some stuff works sometimes while something else on another time and it is very useful to know the audible critical distance and how to adjust early reflections effect to perceived sound. Greatest power is when one has great directivity on speakers and is able to adjust speaker position, toe-in and listening distance at will. Then any record can be listened with great sound, just tweak a bit or change listening distance a bit, for what you like at the moment. There is no one size fits all, there isn't even one size fits for me to me, best speakers are those which are easily adjustable. When situation is what it is, make it best out of it as you like, don't worry about it too much, just enjoy the music. And have fun!