Struggle replacing Old AVR - tried RZ50, 4800h, and Cinema 70 - what now?

[voodooless]

I have no clue how to do that on my Denon. Where's the warm range???

For colour we have objective standards to define colour temperature. Warm and cold are fairly well defined. Warm sound, not so much. It can be lots of things to lots of people. There is no objective standard.

 

[peng]

Fair enough. “Everyone” is too strong of a generalization. My error.


Which is great. Let’s assume the measurement differences are slight differences in mic position. This would suggest that slight differences in seating position would also have a similar difference in sound.

Then it’s not sighted bias. It’s that you aren’t sitting the same spot twice.

Exclusive interview with Nelson Pass – M & S | Ultimate High-Fidelity

www.monoandstereo.com

“Where is the fine line between, resolution, transparency and musicality?
If I knew, then I probably still wouldn’t tell. ”

Since there’s a smiley face… it implies that he is tuning to a standard, especially since we know that Pass Labs amplifiers never measure transparent.

There is also an interview somewhere where Nelson Pass is pushed on distortion and if it really makes sense. He then essentially says what customers buy is what makes sense…

I was left with the impression that Mr
Pass has a strong opinion that the kind of distortions determine tbe sound signature, again that's just my impression, don't really want to quote him unless I remember exactly things he said.

You must know he even designed a harmonic generator and published info for those interested in diy the generator right? I believe him that amps can sound different if they have enough differences in the harmonics profile, but in this case, the 8002 and 4800, RZ50 all have rather low Total harmonic distortions so I believe any audible differences should be subtle at best. But then that's just me.

 

[Times]

Before I go on, here's a fun little story: The Marantz SR8002 was actually the second AVR I ever owned, replacing a Pioneer VSX-1024 and later being replaced with the SR6012. I loved it, because it waAnd it's still running strong in the living room of a friend of mine...

---

The music should be jaw dropping especially good songs. Our brains are attuned to enjoy music and the reaction you have is the best indicator.

You will know when you hear good sound - you'll be "wth, how is this possible?"

When I play music on the 8002 the exact words that have come up to mind over the past 2-3 months are "wth, how is this possible?"

My misconception was that we have at least a little bit of common ground, which is crucial for discussing a certain topic, but that doesn't seem to be the case at all. So let's try and go a step back:

• There is a difference between creating music / sound, which is what artist and instruments do, and reproducing music, which is what audio equipment does.

Do you agree?

• There is absolutely no way to objectively measure the quality of any orignal content itself, because it's highly dependend on each persons individual taste.
• There is, however, a way to objectively measure the quality of any reproduction, because we can compare it to it's original source

Okay so far?

So if you listen to a certain piece of Music through your AVR and loudspeakers there's two things to like or not to like: First, the song itself and second, the way your system reproduces it.

When you want to know to what degree the reproduction is accurate or not, which is the objective part, you need a point of reference. And the only way to find this point of reference is through measurements.

If you personally like a objetively good reproduction is, on the other hand, a totally different thing.

What you're trying to do is to declare very subjetive impressions, your own and these of others, as objective truths. And that's why everyone ist getting mad.

 

[DonR]

The science of music should not be the onus of the consumer, it's the responsibility of the manufacturer.

Folks shouldn't have to measure the performance of the AVR - if you have to do that, imho the manufacturer has failed in making the product.

I'm trying to make the voices warmer on the Denon - on my TV, I can easily switch the color to any setting I want and it will give me a warmer picture. They even have preset color temps like Cool, Warm1, Warm 2, etc.

I have no clue how to do that on my Denon. Where's the warm range???

Some pictures to help you find the appropriate frequencies to boost:

 

[techsamurai]

It’s mentioned exactly ones:



How do you test “audiophile” anyway?

One-third of the review is dedicated to music with 3 different types discussed although he probably listened to 50 or 100 songs as I would have, if not more.

You test it by listening to music - for me, it's how engaging the music is. My feet start picking up the beat and I might even hum or whistle. For others, it's just not being annoyed by it or just being able to listen to it.

 

[DonR]

One-third of the review is dedicated to music with 3 different types discussed although he probably listened to 50 or 100 songs as I would have, if not more.

You test it by listening to music - for me, it's how engaging the music is. My feet start picking up the beat and I might even hum or whistle. For others, it's just not being annoyed by it or just being able to listen to it.

That would be an uncontrolled test and therefore its conclusions are invalid.

 

[techsamurai]

Some pictures to help you find the appropriate frequencies to boost:

Thank you!!! I had posted something like that a year ago and I couldn't find it for the life of me.

Wow, it actually shows the information about the electric guitars - they hum at 50-60hz? I could tell they get that low and the sub couldn't do the same job as my speakers.

I'd posted a bad clip of the Denon and Marantz and how the voices and guitars sound so different but I can't figure out which range I need to change to improve it.

 

[DonR]

Thank you!!! I had posted something like that a year ago and I couldn't find it for the life of me.

Wow, it actually shows the information about the electric guitars - they hum at 50-60hz? I could tell they get that low and the sub couldn't do the same job as my speakers.

I'd posted a bad clip of the Denon and Marantz and how the voices and guitars sound so different but I can't figure out which range I need to change to improve it.

The mains hum is a byproduct of a ground loop, nothing to do with the guitar per se.

 

[techsamurai]

That would be an uncontrolled test and therefore its conclusions are invalid.

To you they may be invalid but to most of us they are quite valid. Having heard the 8002 vs a full wall of AVRs, I have to agree with them.

I would much rather the 4800h was better than the 8002 because I'd understand the improvements over time and I'd get a nice upgrade for a decent price.

 

[DonR]

To you they may be invalid but to most of us they are quite valid. Having heard the 8002 vs a full wall of AVRs, I have to agree with them.

I would much rather the 4800h was better than the 8002 because I'd understand the improvements over time and I'd get a nice upgrade for a decent price.

There is no "to me or to you". It is black and white in this case. Test results from tests without sufficient controls are invalid.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

To you they may be invalid but to most of us they are quite valid. Having heard the 8002 vs a full wall of AVRs, I have to agree with them.

I would much rather the 4800h was better than the 8002 because I'd understand the improvements over time and I'd get a nice upgrade for a decent price.

For “us” the 4800 sounds heavenly with soul and rhythm from the blackest blacks to golden veils. My wife sings and dances in the kitchen, the kids are top of their class in music since they got their own 4800. And for the new year we are seriously considering getting one for the dogs too as the amp pacifies them and makes them happy to our hearts content.

 

[techsamurai]

For “us” the 4800 sounds heavenly with soul and rhythm from the blackest blacks to golden veils. My wife sings and dances in the kitchen, the kids are top of their class in music since they got their own 4800. And for the new year we are seriously considering getting one for the dogs too as the amp pacifies them and makes them happy to our hearts content.

Sadly, I own it so I know this to be very false.

 

[techsamurai]

There is no "to me or to you". It is black and white in this case. Test results from tests without sufficient controls are invalid.

Would this not qualify as a subjective opinion and therefore be invalid? Omg, I'm beginning to sound like you guys...

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Sadly, I own it so I know this to be very false.

No you are wrong 200%. Maybe your speakers are not revealing enough?

 

[DonR]

Would this not qualify as a subjective opinion and therefore be invalid? Omg, I'm beginning to sound like you guys...

Not necessarily. If you could identify a receiver 9 times out of 10 as your preference in a double-blind test, that would constitute valid data. If by that last remark you mean you are beginning to think of your approach to audio from a scientific and rational perspective, then well done to you.

 

[techsamurai]

No you are wrong 200%. Maybe your speakers are not revealing enough?

Yet revealing with the 8002? Unlikely.

My daughter played a song by a singer and pointed out that the 4800h sounded cloudy.

 

[Svend P]

Yet revealing with the 8002? Unlikely.

My daughter played a song by a singer and pointed out that the 4800h sounded cloudy.

No one else on this site can tell amplifiers apart. Does that not make you pause and think maybe you are doing it wrong?

See how people fail in blind tests of amplifiers here:

Links to blind listening tests

Links to blind listening tests

hydrogenaud.io

 

[techsamurai]

No one else on this site can tell amplifiers apart. Does that not make you pause and think maybe you are doing it wrong?

See how people fail in blind tests of amplifiers here:

Links to blind listening tests

Links to blind listening tests

hydrogenaud.io

I had bought a Denon around the same time that DonR bought his 3808CI and returned it. It was terrible with music.

DonR actually chose the 3808 over the 8002 as he couldn't hear differences as you said. On the other hand, I couldn't live with it for 5 minutes.

So there's definitely something different there and the only thing I can think of is hearing and the dissonance that comes with bad sound.

I think my sense of hearing was forged growing up with the Sansui 8080/9090 and in case you don't know it here's a review of it by an avid Marantz fan.

https://hifisetup.medium.com/the-sansui-9090-receiver-or-how-an-avid-vintage-marantz-collector-lover-learned-to-love-the-bomb-c3bafcfb3338

What could be I doing wrong? I turn on the receiver and calibrate it. The only difference is the tripod vs pillows. Let me use the pillows - maybe they remove reflections on the base of the microphone and I get completely different music imaging as a result.

 

[peng]

I had bought a Denon around the same time that DonR bought his 3808CI and returned it. It was terrible with music.

DonR actually chose the 3808 over the 8002 as he couldn't hear differences as you said. On the other hand, I couldn't live with it for 5 minutes.

So there's definitely something different there and the only thing I can think of is hearing and the dissonance that comes with bad sound.

I think my sense of hearing was forged growing up with the Sansui 8080/9090 and in case you don't know it here's a review of it by an avid Marantz fan.

https://hifisetup.medium.com/the-sansui-9090-receiver-or-how-an-avid-vintage-marantz-collector-lover-learned-to-love-the-bomb-c3bafcfb3338

What could be I doing wrong? I turn on the receiver and calibrate it. The only difference is the tripod vs pillows. Let me use the pillows - maybe they remove reflections on the base of the microphone and I get completely different music imaging as a result.

I hate to remind you, but feel compelled to... It has been suggested to you many times that you should compare those two, or three, in pure direct, or even direct mode first, to eliminate the differences due to DSPs, tone controls/EQs etc., and most importantly, human's part in the way they tweak things, and/or running REQ/RC. Once that's done, then the conversation can start again for the next steps.

 

[morpheusX]

I had an Arcam AVR350, which everyone considered it better than the Marantz 8002, and usually considered by audiophiles as being as good as a dedicated stereo amp.
For stereo recordings, and without room correction, the Arcam was as good as a NAD T758 V3 (one of the worst measured AVR's here), and as good as my new Denon X3800H.
In a blind test, i wouldn't be able to distinguish one from another.

I also compared the Arcam direct to the Arcam running a high-end DAC for the time, and it was the same, i wasn't able to distinguish one from the other.

Turn on room correction (PEQ, Antimode, Dirac or Audyssey), and the mighty Arcam is now the worst sounding of them all by a mile ...