Stereophile's Jim Austin disagrees w Atkinson; says tubes have something that can't be measured

[Waxx]

This tread is lost in a banter between two fundamentalist sections it seems. But at the end, subjective preference is not the same as objective perfection. It may be for some, but many like a bit harmonic distortion, and tubes or transistor amps both can give that when done right. The Mastersound amp is not a good example of that.

Objectivly tubes and coloured transistor amps are technical inferior to modern clean amps, but many like that faults as it makes listening to music (what it's all about atthe end) more agreable. It's like american muscle cars. They are very inefficient and technical inferior to the higher end sportscars that are mostly made by european brands (like ferrari or porche or McClaren), but they are fun to drive. Tube amps and class A amps are similar technical inferior but fun for the fans. They don't measure good, but they sound good for those who want that sound. And if you don't like it, these days we got excellent clean amps for your pleasure, and they are often cheaper even than those coloured amps.

And Stereophile, you should never take them serious. Even the measurements they make are not clear (no clear protocol) and low resolution. I'll rather have the ASR measurments or similar high resolutions with standardised and clear methods of measurements. And Stereophile is sponsored by the brands they review, so not objective at all.

 

[Waxx]

plenty of claims re the superiority of MosFET, J-FET etc out there in audioland.

When used right, they can sound excellent in both a clean or coloured way. Jfet especially have some models that are exellent to make a coloured transistor (pre)amp if you wish. But they are no magic bullet, that magic bullet does not exist. It's all in how they are used.

 

[amirm]

Objectivly tubes and coloured transistor amps are technical inferior to modern clean amps, but many like that faults as it makes listening to music (what it's all about atthe end) more agreable.

Here is the problem: this has never been shown to be the case in any formal research or study. You would think that people who believe in this, or the companies for that matter, would do at least one study to show it to be the case. In my own experience of testing a number of tube headphone and power amps, I find them to just add problematic distortion. I am highly sensitive and trained to hear artifacts though so it may be different for normal audiophiles. But let's have them show this effect without bias if it is so real and so good.

 

[amirm]

Tube amps and class A amps are similar technical inferior but fun for the fans.

My experience with Class A amps was back in early 1980s when I was repairing electronics. Got an amp in that had selectable class A and class AB. I repaired it (major grief without schematics) and with excitement, flipped the switch to class A. It made absolutely no audible difference! This is why I say there needs to be a formal study. Anecdotes, no matter how commonly stated don't amount to facts.

 

[Axo1989]

Here is the problem: this has never been shown to be the case in any formal research or study. You would think that people who believe in this, or the companies for that matter, would do at least one study to show it to be the case. In my own experience of testing a number of tube headphone and power amps, I find them to just add problematic distortion. I am highly sensitive and trained to hear artifacts though so it may be different for normal audiophiles. But let's have them show this effect without bias if it is so real and so good.

Did you prefer one or the other in @GXAlan's recent comparison?

 

[Waxx]

My experience with Class A amps was back in early 1980s when I was repairing electronics. Got an amp in that had selectable class A and class AB. I repaired it (major grief without schematics) and with excitement, flipped the switch to class A. It made absolutely no audible difference! This is why I say there needs to be a formal study. Anecdotes, no matter how commonly stated don't amount to facts.

The thing is, it's very hard to objectivly study subjective preference of a person, because it's personal and subjective. So i don't claim any superiority of preference and nobody should. But i and many use tube amps to objective superior amps, side by side (in my case litterlarlly) and know the difference for ME. What you prefer, you should know, i can only guess. But i never claim (and deny any claims) that something that is technical inferior on measurments is superior and everybody should do the same i think. That is the big problem with the actual audiophile world and mags like Stereophile.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Which did you prefer in @GXAlan's recent comparison?

I would think that this does not meet scientific standards, both in terms of methodology and the choice of technical means.

 

[Axo1989]

I would think that this does not meet scientific standards, both in terms of methodology and the choice of technical means.

The clips didn't capture the 300B SET amp effects, but did compare clean versions of the signal with versions that included audible (for some) THD etc. A couple of people in that thread used the aligned/corrected files in ABX software also. That would suffice?

 

[bodhi]

I'd think that audiophiles that prefer audibly distorting tube amps would pass a blind test where preference is checked.

It could be considered aquired taste kind of thing: as long as you can clearly spot the tube amp from transparent one you can decide to like the distorted sound better. And it's not even lying any more, the person really thinks he likes it better. This works because the difference is subtle.

 

[computer-audiophile]

But i and many use tube amps to objective superior amps, side by side (in my case litterlarlly) and know the difference for ME

That's how it is for me, too. It is best to have as broad an hearing experience as possible.Trained in natural sounds and hi-fi. It should also be clear that not all people have excellent hearing.

Here's an anecdote: I'm just getting new glasses made, had my eyes measured. The young optometrist told me that despite my age, I basically see better than her, even though she is healthy and normal. That's different for people from birth, she said.

 

[Sal1950]

Still sticking to the "some things can't be measured" trope.

It is MHO that Jim Austin can't wait for the day that Atkinson retires.
When he does so, the measurement part of the reviews will completely disappear and Stereophile will join
TAS in the "trust your ears only" camp. The audiophile world looks to be drawing lines in the sand. On one side
we have the "analog, vinyl, tubes, 2ch rules camp." On the other side we have the "digital, measurements, solid state, rules, multich is the future camp,". Time will tell which way the money and High End will swing.

 

[sergeauckland]

My experience with Class A amps was back in early 1980s when I was repairing electronics. Got an amp in that had selectable class A and class AB. I repaired it (major grief without schematics) and with excitement, flipped the switch to class A. It made absolutely no audible difference! This is why I say there needs to be a formal study. Anecdotes, no matter how commonly stated don't amount to facts.

I too have had the same sort of experience with some SS amps and valve amplifiers. At 'normal' listening levels and with loudspeakers that present a 'sensible' load, no audible difference. I have recently changed the amplifiers in my Study system to valve amplifiers*, not because of any sonic preference, just because firstly I built or restored them, so have a personal attachment, and secondly (main reason) they look interesting when glowing. Although I can't realistically do a A-B comparison with my previous SS amps, I'm not conscious of any sonic difference, just visual.

* A pair of EL84PPUL (built from scratch) driving JR149 'speakers and a pair of Quad II amps (repaired and restored) bridged driving a sub. Crossover a spare Behringer DCX2496.

Yes, tubes have something that can't be measured, visual appeal, which is why almost all valve amplifiers have the valves exposed, rather than hidden in a box. Where's the fun in a valve amplifier that just looks like a bigger, hotter SS amp?

S.

 

[amirm]

The thing is, it's very hard to objectivly study subjective preference of a person, because it's personal and subjective.

What? Taste tests are done this way all the time. Lossy codes are always rated that way as well so are speakers and headphones.

 

[Sal1950]

Yes, tubes have something that can't be measured, visual appeal, which is why almost all valve amplifiers have the valves exposed, rather than hidden in a box. Where's the fun in a valve amplifier that just looks like a bigger, hotter SS amp?

That hits the nail on the head and the main reason I ran VTL monoblocks for 20 years.
Their warm sound was dictated by the soft glow and heat they put into the room. LOL
I did originally chose them because they were about the best measuring tube amps JA at Stereophile
had ever reviewed and a good mate to my Klipsch La Scalas. Combined with the fact I was running
subwoofers w/ SS amps and a high pass crossover, the VTL's had a very easy job of supplying a transparent, low distortion signal to the K-LS.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

This tread is lost in a banter between two fundamentalist sections it seems. But at the end, subjective preference is not the same as objective perfection. It may be for some, but many like a bit harmonic distortion, and tubes or transistor amps both can give that when done right. The Mastersound amp is not a good example of that.

Objectivly tubes and coloured transistor amps are technical inferior to modern clean amps, but many like that faults as it makes listening to music (what it's all about atthe end) more agreable. It's like american muscle cars. They are very inefficient and technical inferior to the higher end sportscars that are mostly made by european brands (like ferrari or porche or McClaren), but they are fun to drive. Tube amps and class A amps are similar technical inferior but fun for the fans. They don't measure good, but they sound good for those who want that sound. And if you don't like it, these days we got excellent clean amps for your pleasure, and they are often cheaper even than those coloured amps.

And Stereophile, you should never take them serious. Even the measurements they make are not clear (no clear protocol) and low resolution. I'll rather have the ASR measurments or similar high resolutions with standardised and clear methods of measurements. And Stereophile is sponsored by the brands they review, so not objective at all.

I don't have a problem with any of that really. People are free to prefer whatever they want to prefer. I used to know a guy in the 80s who had one of them fancy 2-channel 12 band Kenwood graphic equalizers in his system and he used to run with the lowest slider at minus 12 and the highest (treble) slider at plus 12 and all the other sliders set so they formed a perfectly straight diagonal line between the two. Thats right - all treble no bass. That was his preference. So be it. However, had he tried to tell me that that preference was providing a more revealing, more musical sonic impression than a system that wasn't EQ'd by wacky-tobakky I'd have had to disagree.

If someone is paid to review audio equipment and they happen to (think they) have a personal preference for tubey distortion and harmonics they should state that at the outset. And then, in the course of their review they should arrange to test the amp in a little blind setup...I think it should just be standard operating procedure for a person who's job it is to assess the qualities of this sort of gear (amps and dacs and whatnot) anyway really. If the reviewer thinks he prefers the tube amp in question but somehow he can't actually identify that preference unless he can see them purdy warm tubes glowing then we have some idea of what is really going on there.

Yeah I know, it would require they have a buddy help out with the review and it's never really going to happen - not to mention it would reveal the silliness of about 90% of the flowery prose most reviews are filled with. So, we're at a loggerheads then. It's like if I'm sharing a prison cell with some dude (not for anything violent...probably just some sort of money-laundering scheme or something lol) and he says to me "hey, I can run a 3 minute mile. I totally can." My response would be "Oh really? Well, I'm gonna have to see that!" Then he says "yeah well we're kinda stuck in this little cell here so I can't run a mile for you." My response at that point isn't "Oh, well in that case I totally believe you can run a 3 minute mile then."

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

I'm curious, are there any physically blind reviewers of audio equipment? You'd think a person who had spent their entire life relying on their hearing without any visual cues at all would be uniquely qualified to assess audio gear. Although even then you'd ideally want to remove the bias of knowing they were listening to the really expensive amp or dac now rather than the less expensive one...

 

[ahofer]

I'm curious, are there any physically blind reviewers of audio equipment? You'd think a person who had spent their entire life relying on their hearing without any visual cues at all would be uniquely qualified to assess audio gear. Although even then you'd ideally want to remove the bias of knowing they were listening to the really expensive amp or dac now rather than the less expensive one...

There is/was a blind salesman at a NJ high end store. He pushes (pushed?) tubes and Vandersteens. Was it Audio Connection?

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

There is a blind salesman at a NJ high end store. He pushes (pushed?) tubes and Vandersteens.

Oh I don't doubt that at all. Heck, I could see an audio salesman going so far as to pretend to be blind to sell gear! lol

 

[Sal1950]

I do remember there is a deaf audiophile, seriously.
I see he's heavily into vinyl.

Listening: The Story of Deaf Audiophile Bob Lichtenberg (Stereophile) | In Sheeps Clothing

Listening, a recent film by Stereophile, explores how one deaf audiophile experiences music through a Mylar balloon. In a touching video tribute to late writer Art Dudley, Stereophile tells the story of deaf audiophile Bob Lichtenberg, who currently owns Art's beloved Altec Lansing Flamenco...

insheepsclothinghifi.com

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

I do remember there is a deaf audiophile, seriously.
I see he's heavily into vinyl.

Listening: The Story of Deaf Audiophile Bob Lichtenberg (Stereophile) | In Sheeps Clothing

Listening, a recent film by Stereophile, explores how one deaf audiophile experiences music through a Mylar balloon. In a touching video tribute to late writer Art Dudley, Stereophile tells the story of deaf audiophile Bob Lichtenberg, who currently owns Art's beloved Altec Lansing Flamenco...

insheepsclothinghifi.com

That's quite interesting. I wonder how much higher frequency vibration might be transmitted through the balloon.