Stereophile's Jim Austin disagrees w Atkinson; says tubes have something that can't be measured

[tuga]

I wouldn't. I don't know why this is stated over and over again with no data to back it. Absent that, I think they are either following the crowd, or visual impression of a tube product makes them think it sounds better than it does.

Some adopt tube amps because they go to a friend's house, hear his complete system including tubes and goes home thinking he also needs tube amps, forgetting about everything else that was different. The height of silliness is them coming back thinking they should buy all the same cables! That, we know is not based on facts.

Sure, a guy who over 30 years has owned a dozen speakers and two dozens of amplifiers and several record and CD players and has consistently preferred the less accurate equipment did so because cables and his friend's tubes.

 

[Sal1950]

For me a racecar is a car tuned to take the maximum performance out of it. The Renault R5 TDC below is such a car, altough it doesn't have the typical cliche racecar body style, it's small but it is tuned for that body style. It glues to the track, and is very fast with relative small engine (1.4L I4 turbo with 207 hp) and is one of the best handling cars of the 1980's (and still very good today).

At the dragstrip (racetrack) that fugly Renault couldn't get out of the hole and turn in a decent ET to save it's life. If it got any traction at all it would probably twist that puny 1.4's crankshaft in half.
You Euro's need to learn there's more than one kind of dedicated race car design. I'd love to use my big V8 pickup truck to push the Renault tin junk over a cliff. LOL

 

[SSS]

At the dragstrip (racetrack) that fugly Renault couldn't get out of the hole and turn in a decent ET to save it's life. If it got any traction at all it would probably twist that puny 1.4's crankshaft in half.
You Euro's need to learn there's more than one kind of dedicated race car design. I'd love to use my big V8 pickup truck to push the Renault tin junk over a cliff. LOL

As a German, I accept that there are different race car designs according to the type of race action. Me too I love and have V8 US oldtimers which is really heavy metal. On the other hand, why is Porsche so successful in the US where speed limits exist ?

 

[Sal1950]

On the other hand, why is Porsche so successful in the US where speed limits exist ?

Same reason modern Corvettes, Cameros, Mustang's , Challengers, etc are so successful.
This isn't 1969 any more.

 

[amirm]

Sure, a guy who over 30 years has owned a dozen speakers and two dozens of amplifiers and several record and CD players and has consistently preferred the less accurate equipment did so because cables and his friend's tubes.

You would do well to hang out with such folks because you clearly speak out of turn. Before I created this forum, I co-founded another one with some of the largest population of high-end subjectivist audiophiles. I also know plenty of them personally. My co-founder at first didn't believe in cables. Goes to someone's house, hears these cables and comes back and buys a whole "loom." His USB cables alone retailed for $15,000 to $20,000! Not a typo!

Some of these folks love to show off their gear and it is routine for people to visit them and then try to copy some of their systems just like my partner did above. Spend time with them over many years and you see that there is no such logic as you claimed.

 

[Purité Audio]

I find that many just believe subjective reviews, I certainly did, without the technical background I couldn’t begin to even question the nonsense being written.
Also one mustn’t underestimate the ‘hobby’ aspect of sound reproduction for many the enjoyment comes from reading the reviews speaking to their ‘trusted’ dealer ( hilarious) the journey rather than the arrival.
Keith

 

[computer-audiophile]

I find the disdain with which the stereophile authors are dismissed by some here misplaced. They are, in my opinion, decent people who seriously and for a long time care about hi-fi. I find it most unpleasant when extreme positions, one side or the other e.g. the so-called objectivists / subjectivists are presented in a know-it-all form.

 

[Purité Audio]

They are just schilling expensive equipment, they have no technical knowledge ( not John Atkinson) what is there to admire?
Keith

 

[computer-audiophile]

They are just schilling expensive equipment, they have no technical knowledge ( not John Atkinson) what is there to admire?
Keith

There was no question of admiration. Of course, it's best to bring along a competence as a trained music recipient in addition to technical competence, if you don't just want to make a one-sided assessment. After all, laboratory measurements were also published in the relevant test by Stereophile. (Even if they don't give a particularly good picture - but I had already written that).

 

[napfkuchen]

Large parts of the hifi industry are clinging to the music reproduction just like they did 30 years ago, promoting massive piles of equipment which only have a small (if even at all) impact on improving sound quality. Just like the dinosaurs they should be gone by now but music journalists keep the industry running. To me ASR is similar to James Randi in debunking paranormal BS: But although objectively convincing that's (sadly) not enough for many to keep them from throwing away their money.
Most importantly, however, I find the point that these "journalists" manage to create a state of permanent dissatisfaction in the customer with their meaningless ramblings in order to generate further sales. That's what's really repulsive about it.

 

[computer-audiophile]

I like ASR, it partly serves my technical curiosity - but nothing more.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Large parts of the hifi industry are clinging to the music reproduction just like they did 30 years ago, promoting massive piles of equipment ...

In the past, the audio magazines were also a kind of shop window where you could enjoy the images of beautiful audio equipment accompanied by thoughtful reviews. They are increasingly losing this role to the Internet. What comes after that is often no better, in my opinion. You no longer have serious magazine editors as with Stereophile, but questionable YouTubers take their place.

 

[computer-audiophile]

Really? Do you really find it unpleasant when "extreme" positions are presented? Are you sure?

Unfortunately, you only highlighted one part in the quote. My point was the know-it-all attitude of some. It is a question of style in communication.

Post scriptum: I have the impression that the Stereophile authors are not so absolutist (or even aggressive).

 

[OldenEars]

As always, buttering both sides of the bread.

ah, your bread is buttery smooth sounding, you say?

 

[ahofer]

I just think people should endeavor to avoid stating or repeating unproven or improbable claims as fact.

I sort of make an exception for religious ceremonies.

 

[fpitas]

I just think people should endeavor to avoid stating or repeating unproven or improbable claims as fact.

I sort of make an exception for religious ceremonies.

Well, they 're going to do it, whether we like it or not. If they try it here though, they will get flack.

 

[OldenEars]

that was my thought too. "Impeccably beautiful"? Uhhh, no. I'll buy an amp for $600 that looks fine and does a better job of what it's supposed to do, and then buy a few nice pieces of art for my room and still come out $5k better off thanks.

i'd prefer to have both, but if i can't i'd also do that.

For no related reason it made me think of a friend who (many, many years ago) bought a linn sondek and tone arm and unobtainium crafted needle, but needed to add a piece of sellotape (scotch tape us translation ) at just the right place to improve its sound....

 

[OldenEars]

I just think people should endeavor to avoid stating or repeating unproven or improbable claims as fact.

I sort of make an exception for religious ceremonies.

honestly, *&^% the sky fairy cults

just imaging the perfect audiophile hifis available in heaven

 

[OldenEars]

people will always try to justify their $10,000 purchase that doesnt measure well with some 'ethereal' quality that defies mere mortal products that measure well

you can also see it at the Willsenton R8 end where we have reasonably affordable chinese tubes... i think on the flip side we see $10k class a/b units that dont measure all that well either

but it sounds buttery smooth, honeylike transparency and musical

 

[amirm]

I find the disdain with which the stereophile authors are dismissed by some here misplaced. They are, in my opinion, decent people who seriously and for a long time care about hi-fi. I find it most unpleasant when extreme positions, one side or the other e.g. the so-called objectivists / subjectivists are presented in a know-it-all form.

How do you find Austin's disdain for us? Here is what he post after this thread was created:

We are ignorant and poorly informed? Lack wisdom?

But yes, we should not get personal.