Stereophile's Jim Austin disagrees w Atkinson; says tubes have something that can't be measured

[amirm]

Sometimes referred to as being a shill. I'd respect him more if he believes what he wrote. even if mistaken than if he is simply being a media whore. His additional comment indicates he's a whore.

Let's be more diplomatic please and avoid those terms.

 

[IPunchCholla]

Also...There are many passionate audiophiles--again, not me--who have been on a lifelong journey seeking the best sound--the most musically expressive, humanly communicative sound. They are like artists, or, at a minimum, seriously engaged art lovers, people for whom music is daily sustenance. They relate to their music (and musicians), via their hi-fi systems, in a deeply human way. A lifetime of listening has made them astute observers, far beyond what most of us, who dabble in a hobby and limit our thinking to DBTs, will ever achieve...

The problem is the bolded bit. Hi-if means something. I take it to mean reproduction gear and room is designed to be as close to the media on the playback system as possible. The media should be as close to the master as possible. That seems like a reasonable definition of Hi-Fi. Just replace hi-if with sound production systems or something without the notion of fidelity and it’s all good. I’m not particularly into hi-if myself (though I do seem to require a certain amount in my music listening) so would be fine with the quoted statement being applied to me minus the hi-if reference.

TLDR: Fidelity is an objective goal.

 

[sdrichard]

Is it? What if it's nothing but their imagination? All we ask for is some sort of effort to establish what's really behind the "something" that is going on - especially when various objective means seem to suggest that that something can't really be going on. I mean...particularly in light of the fact that some of the equipment being sold on the basis of that something isn't exactly inexpensive...
....

In the medicine world, we all know...
- do placebos work? YES
- do expensive placebos work better than cheap placebos? YES

Here's the reference to the double-blind controlled study: https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/expensive-placebos-work-better

So, does the FDA allow you to sell expensive placebos to patients, now that we have proven that they work great? Hell no.

Luckily, audio equipment is not regulated by the FDA....

 

[DonH56]

Ever use one of the early Tektronix microcomputers like a 4051? They used the long-persistance displays. Tonnes of fun to do "real time" kinetics on them, or play ballistic target games.

Of course, but that's too easy. The real geeks built waveform generators to play the games on the 'scope's screen. Lissajous had nothing on us...

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

The problem is the bolded bit. Hi-if means something. I take it to mean reproduction gear and room is designed to be as close to the media on the playback system as possible. The media should be as close to the master as possible. That seems like a reasonable definition of Hi-Fi. Just replace hi-if with sound production systems or something without the notion of fidelity and it’s all good. I’m not particularly into hi-if myself (though I do seem to require a certain amount in my music listening) so would be fine with the quoted statement being applied to me minus the hi-if reference.

TLDR: Fidelity is an objective goal.

welllll for me, the problem is the fundamental notion that there's a group of uber-mensch audiophiles who have attained a higher cosmic connection to their music and their systems such that when they make statements about things related to audio which seem to be contradicted by (or which seem unlikely based upon) objective reality we should ignore that objective information and assume without challenge that the Audio Jedi is hearing some extra-dimensional quality that our objective information simply can't account for.

 

[ivayvr]

That's not butter!

It is! It is known in theory as Brown Butter, more commonly known as BS!

 

[Newman]

Jim Austin has issued a reply of sorts, as a comment to the Mastersound 845 review.

…
When they say there's something going on beyond second-order distortion and output-impedance-induced deviations from neutrality, I take that seriously. To repeat: This is worthy of respect.….

Jim Austin, Editor

Excellent, and here Austin confirms that he is NOT talking about sweet-sounding distortion: he is talking about as-yet-unmeasured, the-science-isn’t-good-enough-yet, phenomena.

 

[IPunchCholla]

welllll for me, the problem is the fundamental notion that there's a group of uber-mensch audiophiles who have attained a higher cosmic connection to their music and their systems such that when they make statements about things related to audio which seem to be contradicted by (or which seem unlikely based upon) objective reality we should ignore that objective information and assume without challenge that the Audio Jedi is hearing some extra-dimensional quality that our objective information simply can't account for.

Yeah, there’s that too. But there are at least two ASR members who can jump 20 feet in the air. They said so, so we shouldn’t ask them to prove it.

 

[Newman]

welllll for me, the problem is the fundamental notion that there's a group of uber-mensch audiophiles who have attained a higher cosmic connection to their music and their systems such that when they make statements about things related to audio which seem to be contradicted by (or which seem unlikely based upon) objective reality we should ignore that objective information and assume without challenge that the Audio Jedi is hearing some extra-dimensional quality that our objective information simply can't account for.

I agree. He simply used another way of describing the Golden Ear audiophile of old.

IMO it is an inevitable phenomenon, as a result of believing the fundamental untruth that sighted listening reveals impressions that are 100% in the sound waves. The impressions become more and more ‘acute’ as the Golden Ears, the Masters, the High Priests, start reporting the sonic improvements that their lifetime of ‘deep learning and experience’ has told them can be gained from this wire vs that, this capacitor vs that, this special circuit element they discovered vs that.

cheers

 

[Talisman]

Onestly?
I think asr has to go his way.
We have mountains of data thanks to Amir and the other reviewers, needn't we squabble about the magic of tube sound. Those who believe in that sort of magic aren't predisposed to accept the mundane reality of measurements, so there's no point in worrying about them.
There are thousands of lurkers out there who follow this site because they believe in the reality of scientific measurements and not the folklore of audio shamans.
Let's go on our way, the best way to remove strength from certain dynamics is to stop giving them importance and visibility

 

[ivayvr]

After Jim, Mistra knowing all, took over, I noticed that I had a serious difficulty spending more than 15-20 minutes with every issue. It took me a while to figure out what has actually changed! His relativization of every known concept and his pseudo intellectual/philosophical rants turned reading the Stereophile into a serious reputational risk. Finally, after 15-20 years of following it on more or less regular basis, I decided that I had enough.

Edit: I thought I should add that the opinions/beliefs I'm referring to are held by many of the most experienced, devoted, passionate audiophiles. I do not take that lightly.

The opinion that Earth is a flat plate has much longer history then the opinion of the above quoted bunch and some people believe it to this very day.
Some of the favorite reviewers admitted having their opinion chemically induced. What about opinions that are pharmacologically induced? Are they more or less valid? And they are all experienced and passionate. Will their opinion change the speed of sound?
I tend to believe that John Atkinson is one of the good guys given the overall environment.
Most of the time what he writes at least makes some sense.

 

[Axo1989]

Excellent, and here Austin confirms that he is NOT talking about sweet-sounding distortion: he is talking about as-yet-unmeasured, the-science-isn’t-good-enough-yet, phenomena.

Reviewing one of those amps here, @GXAlan demonstrated an effect—a treble boost that increased with output level—that was likely audible and also likely to give a sonic impression of dynamics when listening to music. That's in addition to any static impedance-related effect when using different speakers.

Straightforward to measure when you know what you are looking for (just do FR at different output levels) but maybe not immediately observable when running a standard measuring suite. And applicable to a subset of the amplifier category, not to other designs. So if Austin says "something going on beyond second-order distortion and output-impedance-induced deviations from neutrality" he may be correct, but where other technical explanations for that dynamic behaviour exist, the mystification is unhelpful. Semantic confusion really, not magic.

 

[thecheapseats]

"Jim" pointed out this 'other site' (ASR) is "ungracious" in its comments... well, ok... perhaps that designation is more clearly seen from this side of the fence as advocating for consumers of audio equipment... that's how I see it, anyway...

 

[Blumlein 88]

Nope.



Nope. You must be thinking of someone else.



The point isn't that a tube amp can't be made audibly indistinguishable from a solid state amp.
Nor is it that a solid state amp can't be made to mimic the characteristics of a poorly measuring tube amp.

But rather: Are tube amps significantly more likely to measure "poorly" vs solid state amps?

I've yet to see a case that would deny the above. And we have decades and decades of measurements from Stereophile with tube amps measuring on average worse than solid state amps.

The next question is are we more likely to encounter audible distortion from tube amp designs vs solid state? If so...then it makes sense to talk about the type of audible distortions more common among tube amps.

Also among poor measuring SS amps we don't have cults of people who love them. Bad SS amps are just bad.

 

[Axo1989]

Also among poor measuring SS amps we don't have cults of people who love them. Bad SS amps are just bad.

The usual story is that "euphonic" valve amps have harmonic distortion profiles where levels decline as h-number increases, but "bad SS amps" have higher harmonic distortion for higher harmonics as well. The former is described as pleasing, the latter not so as higher harmonics may be more audible, more distant from the fundamental and thus less masked.

I preferred the lower (H2) distortion file in @GXAlan's recent comparison though, so (to the extent that's indicative) that explanation isn't for me.

Also, some of those Nelson Pass solid state amps (with pretty high measured THD, but a valve amp distortion profile) have a cult following, I think.

 

[Short38]

You have fast fingers. As soon as I hit post I changed my mind and deleted the post. But you caught me .

We have to decide as a group what we want this site to be. A Engineering and Scientific community or another form of Social Media where we get dramatic and make fun of others? This thread is just but one example of how the Social Media cancer spreads. As a Moderator I mostly observe and let you folks decide what you want to talk about. When I see this kind of activity in a subject like this I would be damned if I do and damned if I don’t close the thread as off topic.

It’s entirely up to you all to decide. Keep posting here and the thread lives on. Stop and the thread dies. The #1 biggest complaint is too many threads not about Engineering, Science and technical stuff. Just venting a little here.

I came for measurements and analysis of same. This thread is off the rails.

 

[Ken1951]

Others treat it as an art form

HiFi equipment as an "art form"??? Joni= art; Thievery Corporation = art; Enya = art; VSOP = art; Floyd = art; Snatam Kaur = art; Clapton = art; Passport = art; Portishead = art; Moby = art; Einaudi = art; Masako = art; Lord Huron = art. You get the picture. That statement is the crux of the problem. I don't want my audio equipment to do any damn thing other than put out what the Actual Artists put in. Anything else is anathema. At least to this old guy.

 

[BlackTalon]

Ok, but do you have an argument as to why my analogy was not relevant to my point? I mean, perhaps you are right and I was wrong (and I'm a knuckle-head with regard to cars), but mere assertion doesn't make the case either way. Thanks.

I can tackle that. Labelling a car a sportscar is subjective -- it means something different to different people. But a tube amp is a tube amp --it's usually pretty black-and-white.

 

[CDMC]

Do you think if the transistor was invented first, everyone would be chasing the transistor sound?

 

[Mart68]

Do you think if the transistor was invented first, everyone would be chasing the transistor sound?

plenty of claims re the superiority of MosFET, J-FET etc out there in audioland.