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Stereo Bass using subwoofers

abdo123

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I use dual subs to optimize the frequency response of my money seat, so it's not just for a wide area. A separate calibration widens that to the other seats.

Well you could technically do two presets in which one optimizes for multiple seats and one for a particular seat.

But for the situation you mentioned the second sub is just adding 6 dB of headroom below the first mode and 6 dB ‘on average’ above the first mode.

Nothing wrong about that, but if you didn’t need the headroom to begin with then the second subwoofer is not really necessary.
 

Chromatischism

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2. bone conduction and Structure born vibration also account for localization
Absolutely, that is what we've been saying – when people say they can hear the direction of low frequency sounds, they are being fooled. It's not the low frequency sound they are detecting the direction of, but other things correlated with it.

If you are playing specialized content with stereo bass signals, you may be able to tell which sub is playing based on vibrations or other feedback, but not the fundamental frequency itself.
3. If you have 2 subs with discrete L/R signals you have stereo subs REGARDLESS of perception.
Not if you are listening to mono content (most bass is). Then you still have mono subs regardless of the inputs.
 

Chromatischism

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Well you could technically do two presets in which one optimizes for multiple seats and one for a particular seat.

But for the situation you mentioned the second sub is just adding 6 dB of headroom below the first mode and 6 dB ‘on average’ above the first mode.

Nothing wrong about that, but if you didn’t need the headroom to begin with then the second subwoofer is not really necessary.
The frequency response of the two subs are completely different because they are at different locations. I take it you know how the "sub crawl" works. Imagine doing that a 2nd time to find the best response for sub 2 while both subs are playing. Now test each individually – they are totally different, but they complement each other, especially once delays and EQ are applied.
 

abdo123

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The frequency response of the two subs are completely different because they are at different locations. I take it you know how the "sub crawl" works. Imagine doing that a 2nd time to find the best response for sub 2 while both subs are playing. Now test each individually – they are totally different, but they complement each other, especially once delays and EQ are applied.

It doesn’t matter you can EQ the response to your target anyway with one sub too and it would be the same. Just with less headroom.
 

GimeDsp

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Absolutely, that is what we've been saying – when people say they can hear the direction of low frequency sounds, they are being fooled. It's not the low frequency sound they are detecting the direction of, but other things correlated with it.

If you are playing specialized content with stereo bass signals, you may be able to tell which sub is playing based on vibrations or other feedback, but not the fundamental frequency itself.

Not if you are listening to mono content (most bass is). Then you still have mono subs regardless of the inputs.
I get what you are saying, but system design with discrete channels and content are different.

If you go into a movie theater with 24 discrete channels of Dobly Atmos that doesn't make it a mono system if you happen to playback mono music from 1950s.

Man I miss my atmos set up! nothing like immersive HT in my opinion.

In a week I am going to a studio my partner designed for a mega church. They have a full spec'd studio with all the goodies. Isolation, dampening etc. I will run my LF tests on their system if I have time and see if it makes a big difference.
 

Chromatischism

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Now please lets all leave the TEXT walls behind and instead of shouting down people's opinions, lets just agree our perception matters, and that there is a great body of evidence and proof supporting localization.
As long as we're clear what we're talking about:

From Loudspeakers and Rooms for Sound Reproduction—A Scientific Review, p. 470:
Floyd Toole said:
As with any subwoofer system, the low-pass filtering must be such that the sound output is attenuated rapidly above the crossover frequency (80 Hz). Excessive output, distortion products, or noises at higher frequencies increase the risk that listeners will localize the subwoofers. A second issue relates to the fact that in order for these systems to function fully, the bass must be monophonic below the crossover frequency. Most of the bass in common program material is highly correlated or monophonic to begin with and bass-management systems are commonplace, but some have argued that it is necessary to preserve at least two-channel playback down to some very low frequency. Experimental evidence thus far has not been encouraging to supporters of this notion (see [72] and references therein). Audible differences appear to be near or below the threshold of detection, even when experienced listeners are exposed to isolated low-frequency sounds. Another recent investigation concludes that the audible effects benefiting from channel separation relate to frequencies above about 80 Hz [73]. (In their conclusion, the authors identify a “cutoff-frequency boundary between 50 Hz and 63 Hz,” these being the center frequencies of the octave bands of noise used as signals. However, when the upper frequency limits of the bands are taken into account, the numbers change to about 71 and 89 Hz, the average of which is 80 Hz.)
 

Chromatischism

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It doesn’t matter you can EQ the response to your target anyway with one sub too and it would be the same. Just with less headroom.
You often can not, though. Very few people are fortunate enough to have the ability to place one subwoofer in a spot that results in zero major dips or nulls in the response, which are not fixable with EQ.
 
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abdo123

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You often can not. Very few people are fortunate enough to have the ability to place one subwoofer in a spot that results in zero major dips or nulls in the response, which are not fixable with EQ.

Again, it doesn’t matter how many dips and nulls you have in one location as long as you have the headroom to fix it. Everything is fixable with EQ when the room / response is minimum phase.
 

Chromatischism

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Agreed. Stereo subs should only be considered if you can achieve balanced and smooth response on both.
Since the phase problems are content-dependent, how can you verify that you have smooth response? It's not as simple as doing frequency sweeps of each sub as we normally do.
 

Chromatischism

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Again, it doesn’t matter how many dips and nulls you have in one location as long as you have the headroom to fix it. Everything is fixable with EQ when the room / response is minimum phase.
Think about what you are saying. You are essentially saying subwoofer location doesn't matter.

Do you have experience equalizing a subwoofer with a complete cancellation in a range of frequencies? Show your work, please.
 

GimeDsp

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Since the phase problems are content-dependent, how can you verify that you have smooth response? It's not as simple as doing frequency sweeps of each sub as we normally do.
Thankfully I am a "system operator and designer" and mainly a "subjective evaluator" the high level work in system calibration on the testing we are doing is a professional acoustician, studio designer, and retired electrical engineer.

We use AFMG Systune that has amazing "coherence" and phase tools that I haven't had time to learn yet.
 

abdo123

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Think about what you are saying. You are essentially saying subwoofer location doesn't matter.

Do you have experience equalizing a subwoofer with a complete cancellation in a range of frequencies? Show your work, please.

You've literally been arguing for pages about the insignificance of stereo subwoofers because you can't localize the sub-bass. but now subwoofer location is important?

when it comes to ONE subwoofer, the location of the subwoofer doesn't matter because the listening position is already determined by whatever works best for stereo imaging at that room. if you had TWO locations, or TWO subwoofers and more that you can manipulate then yes playing with the location might help.

but with one subwoofer and an already per-determined listening spot it doesn't matter where that one subwoofer goes. Also subwoofers don't experience complete cancellation because they're not usually placed far off boundaries. The only way an axial room mode would become a complete cancellation is if the walls of the room are made of 20 cm of reinforced concrete and no energy is allowed to escape the room.

So yeah, if that subwoofer is capable of ~120 dB peaks then even a 20 dB dip is not an issue. for one listening spot it's all about the headroom, but that doesn't mean that getting one massive subwoofer is the most cost-effective approach.
 

Chromatischism

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You've literally been arguing for pages about the insignificance of stereo subwoofers because you can't localize the sub-bass. but now subwoofer location is important?
Absolutely subwoofer location is important. How else will you deal with the physics of room modes other than putting the subwoofer where it works best? Once you have the best location, then you equalize.

EQ is NOT a replacement for poor location.

Have you ever set up subwoofers? Have you done measurements? I'm getting the impression you have not. I do not mean offense by that. Your comments just sound like you haven't.
 
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Marth

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I have two dipol subs without any time delay and they are also not out of phase. I can tell you that on some songs the show identical synced movemen but on others its different. Should I do some tests?
 

abdo123

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Absolutely subwoofer location is important. How else will you deal with the physics of room modes other than putting the subwoofer where it works best? Once you have the best location, then you equalize.

EQ is NOT a replacement for poor location.

Have you ever set up subwoofers? Have you done measurements? I'm getting the impression you have not. I do not mean offense by that. Your comments just sound like you haven't.
The thing is with one subwoofer and a nonnegotiable listening position the response's error rate will almost always be the same no matter where you place the subwoofer.

There might be an 'optical illusion' as you see the response change, but in reality, you're just moving the modes around.

So the best subwoofer location for one subwoofer is probably the location where the subwoofer's response is flat-ish in the crossover region so integation is simpler.

My opinion changes whenever:
1) you can move the listening position too
2) you have more than one listening position
3) you have more than one subwoofer
 

abdo123

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Have you ever set up subwoofers? Have you done measurements? I'm getting the impression you have not. I do not mean offense by that. Your comments just sound like you haven't.

Since you have turned this discussion into a ***** measuring contest, I use multi-sub optimizer with my two subs to minimize the seat to seat variation of my setup to around ~2 dB RMS.

1632398033468.png


This is the seat to seat variance without optimization

1632400360614.png

Then i use Global EQ, this way i know up to 200Hz all 4 of my seats have only ~2dB seat to seat variation and all of them have a smooth response.

1632398005058.png


So yeah, what's your setup and how do you integrate your subs?
 
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DonH56

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This will be my last post Regarding Wenti's paper.
Welti, Todd Welti. If you're going to rip him a new one at least get the name right.
 

NTK

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The benefits of multi-subs as setup using Todd Welti's method are undeniable. So, while Welti might have downplayed the audibility of stereo bass, he has certainly gotten a lot of it right.

David Griesinger, who advocated for stereo bass while working at Harman, wrote:


Note the bolded text.

He was also a proponent of creating a different kind of bass that is not achievable in our homes except under very specific conditions. Some refer to this now as spacious bass, or "bassiousness". Matthew Poes attempted to replicate this but concluded it probably isn't worth it.
Not to disagree with you or Poes (as it is a matter of personal preference), per Griesinger, the main benefit from stereo bass is not localization. A sound rarely does not include harmonics going into the hundreds of Hz (or higher), and it will be localized using these higher frequency harmonics. The benefits Griesinger after are low frequency envelopment and "externalization" -- as Griesinger explained in the introduction section to this paper (Introduction, 3rd paragraph, http://www.davidgriesinger.com/overvw1.pdf)

Listening rooms also suffer from a perceptual anomaly that has no obvious counterpart in performance spaces. Low frequency instruments in popular music, such as the kick drum and the bass guitar, are almost always perceived as coming from inside the head. This perception does not occur in the concert venue, even when these instruments are amplified. This “in the head” localization is unique to recorded music. It is always perceived as artificial by the author. In this paper we will use the word “externalization” to describe this perceptual property.

Here was Matthew Poes' conclusion in his Audioholics article. (link: https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/stereo-bass)

matthewpoe.PNG


IMHO I think Poes was too pessimistic regarding the binary choice. Griesinger did say EQ could be useful. If I were to implement stereo bass, with a sub (or subs) at each side of the listening position, I'd EQ the subs the same way as if they are playing mono bass, since bass in most pop music is mono. I'd then let the uncorrelated bass that comes out from each channel fall however way they may.

The alternative approach is to EQ each of the bass channels independently from each other (EQ under the assumption that the bass in each channel is completely uncorrelated and therefore does not affect the other channel). Or some middle ground in between both.
 
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GimeDsp

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Welti, Todd Welti. If you're going to rip him a new one at least get the name right.
You're lucky you read that post after the 1000th spelling correction!

NTK made a really good point about positions/opinions being to black and white.
"Subtly at best' for stereo subs may be the only thing keeping a system back from realism.

My test for realism contains a bad live recoding of vocals and trumpets recorded with the good old sm58 and beta57 mics.
Being around live jazz music and also PA sound i know exactly what those things sound like when recorded with those mics. In many systems they dont sound right until the most "subtle" balance in FR is achieved. A subtle dip around 200hz and boost around 8k will ruin the sound. So "subtle" can be all the difference.

Its also important that i am looking at things from a single listener position.
 
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