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Stereo Bass using subwoofers

GimeDsp

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Thank you all for supplying the papers I was looking for.

I believe welti's test design is considerably lacking and designed to fail.
I will be analyzing his samples (to the best of my ability since I do not see that he listed at what time from each track his test samples are from)

Edit, thankfully specific time period of loops were included.

For this to be science, and repeatable, Welti would need to provide the ability to repeat it, maybe he did.

I am going to analyze to the best of my ability the nature of his "sample loops" and the level difference between mono bass and stereo/panned.
 
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Soundmixer

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Are there links for the studies you mentioned?
Quote:
"Todd Welti of Harman has already conducted tests on this (so did Martens both published on it in 2004)"
I would suggest you purchase Dr. Floyd Toole's book Sound reproduction volume 2. Pages 258-259 quote Welti's and Marten's work on this issue. Bob Greene formerly of Stereo Review back in the early 2000s also did a test on this issue, and I got a chance to participate in that test. He came to the same conclusions as Welti and Marten based on the data he accumulated from the test.
 

Pdxwayne

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I would suggest you purchase Dr. Floyd Toole's book Sound reproduction volume 2. Pages 258-259 quote Welti's and Marten's work on this issue. Bob Greene formerly of Stereo Review back in the early 2000s also did a test on this issue, and I got a chance to participate in that test. He came to the same conclusions as Welti and Marten based on the data he accumulated from the test.
Welti's paper already being linked here.

See https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tereo-bass-using-subwoofers.11034/post-919129

Quote:
Significant results were found in all cases for the contrived stimulus. This suggests that for certain signals, differences between any of the subwoofer configurations are likely to be audible, however, signals such as modulated warble tones are unlikely to occur with any frequency in typical program material.
...........


Did he ever hear of electronica music? :facepalm:
How about you? Do you listen to electronica?

How about your prior tests? What was the materials?
 

Soundmixer

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I don't know what your goal is here or what you are trying to 'prove', or you own experience level for that matter. I am far far from a novice, and frankly if you don't believe what I am saying, I don't care. Sorry to be blunt, but that's the way it is.
If you are so convinced that stereo bass exists, prove it....plain and simple. So far nobody has except anecdotal subjective opinion, but where is the science?
 

Soundmixer

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Audible differences for music signals were found only for the comparison of single channel front center subwoofer vs. two channel subwoofers at +/- 90 degrees. This was not surprising, as it is hard to conceive of a more extreme comparison in terms of spatial information conveyed to the listener.

Audible differences do not equal stereo imaging. You are reaching big time.
 

Pdxwayne

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Audible differences do not equal stereo imaging. You are reaching big time.
Wow......

Then what is the purpose of the research paper? How will you then be so sure that stereo imaging does not exist, solely based on research paper that does not research stereo imaging?

You are reaching big time....
 

Soundmixer

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Unlike the room of figure 7, this room shows a substantial forward localization.

Forward localization is one thing, lateral localization is another. Forward localization comes from feeling the pressure wave, but there is no evidence of the ability to ascertain lateral specificity at low frequencies.
 
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Soundmixer

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Wow......

Then what is the purpose of the research paper? How will you then be so sure that stereo imaging does not exist, solely based on research paper that does not research stereo imaging?

You are reaching big time....
When you are able to point out a specific instrument or sound between two speakers at bass frequencies, please let me know. That is imaging. Bass spread between two speakers can contribute to the perception of space, but not specific imaging. There is a difference between specific imaging and a perceptually broadened soundfield.
 

Pdxwayne

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When you are able to point out a specific instrument or sound between two speakers at bass frequencies, please let me know. That is imaging. Bass spread between two speakers can contribute to the perception of space, but not specific imaging. There is a difference between specific imaging and a perceptually broadened soundfield.
Try this one with one mono sub on the right vs stereo subs. Listen to the sub tones for the whole song. Feel the sub tones with your body. Compare the differences. Then get back to me.

 

Soundmixer

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Try this one with one mono sub on the right vs stereo subs. Listen to the sub tones for the whole song. Feel the sub tones with your body. Compare the differences. Then get back to me.

Feeling the sub tones does not mean stereo imaging or even the perception of stereo. Sorry, but this is a fail.
 

Pdxwayne

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Feeling the sub tones does not mean stereo imaging or even the perception of stereo. Sorry, but this is a fail.
I meant listen to specific sub tones more on the left. Listen to whole song. That is call imaging. If you can't even sense that differences of sub tones in different locations, your hearing or setup is a fail.

Do you even have the capability to do stereo subs in your room?
 

MakeMineVinyl

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If you are so convinced that stereo bass exists, prove it....plain and simple. So far nobody has except anecdotal subjective opinion, but where is the science?
I can prove that you have just been placed on my ignore list. ;)
 

GimeDsp

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Hello all!
So I read through Welti's paper and made a video I hope to post soon about it's problems
I also made a video about the localization of sound.

Here is where the paper falls apart-It contains a logic bomb. I call it the principle of self-destruction but it is officially known as

Here is the self-refuting design in Wenti (2004) that makes the scientific value ZERO.

1. Welti is using 4 loop samples to test if LF sound can be localized.

2. Therefore the looped samples MUST contain all relevant sonic info to ALLOW for the localizing of LF sound.

Here in lies the Self-refuting_idea

1. Welti can run another test demonstrating that his samples are sufficient to test for the localization of LF sound.

However doing this would also disprove his claim in this paper.

2. Welti can use the samples he chose but then his test design is invalid because for his test "4 out of 4" choices must be right. If he chooses not to prove his samples are valid then it is possible his samples are invalid thus making a "wrong" choice invalid.
 
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GimeDsp

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So I just checked out what I THINK the samples Wenti used were and they are very bad for the purpose, very diffuse, vague LF sounds.

I tried to find what he called "Ladysmith Black Mambozo Loop" but couldn't. It seems that is a band name and there is no track info I could find so it can't be repeated.

Enya – Orinoco Flow seconds 2-7 maybe.
Song at bottom. this is a horrible test song section missing the elements I would use to locate low frequencies.


Theme from Terminator
seconds 4-9 (about)
This track also make no sense. I put this song into audacity and plotted the spectrum for seconds 4-9 and this is the spectral content for
THE FIRST terminator theme I found. since it wasn't in the paper ,insufficient documentation of sample sources, I can't reproduce it for sure.

As you can see, the majority of LF content in this sample is well over 100hz. This sample just doesn't make any sense for testing LF localization including below 80hz
terminator.png

Here is a look at the same titled "the terminator theme" from youtube:
This version has a stronger "da, da, DA DA DA!"

Upon inspection, we see an issue I suspected would be in the Samples Wenti used.
The attack of the LF sound is missing and the diffuse sound field remains.
In a diffuse or HF/MF attenuated sound field localization is ALWAYS much harder.
compare.png

Before Inversion
Terminator the them BEFORE invert.PNG
After inversion (decorrelated remains)
Termintor sec 4-9 after invert.PNG






 
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FrantzM

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Not to mention that at very low frequencies and relatively high amplitudes, your body can bloody well feel where these low frequencies are coming from even as the ears become less sensitive to localization. ;)
Any study to sustain that “feeling”?
 

Chromatischism

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I use stereo subs, operated in stereo, two per side 18". They are in the front corners of the room so why in the world I go out of my way to sum them to mono when it is easier to just leave them stereo? There is definitely no lack of 'impact' when needed, and the response if flat to 17Hz.
Based on what I've heard so for, if I wanted a "party" sound where the bass pumps more I would do mono. If I wanted an accurate sound, stereo. Both are cool.
If you have mains that go down to 50Hz and sub down to 20 the effect is less pronounced.
The reason is not to achieve a "party" sound but to keep bass response linear across all content. If you have "stereo" subs, you will have content-dependent phase interactions between the subs and the speakers that will skew the frequency response. Harman realized this and abandoned "stereo" subs in favor of Sound Field Management.
For the end user, the genre of music they listen to will dictate any benefit they get from stereo subs.
Indeed. I could see it having use with headphones, like with binaural recording. But with the physics of small room acoustics being ever present, coupled with the psychoacoustics of low frequency sound, most music is mixed mono in the sub bass.
 

Chromatischism

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there is no reason to do mono bass if you’re not trying to minimize the seat to seat variance of an entire listening space.
I use dual subs to optimize the frequency response of my money seat, so it's not just for a wide area. A separate calibration widens that to the other seats.
 

GimeDsp

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So I just checked out what I THINK the samples Wenti used were and they are very bad for the purpose, very diffuse, vague LF sounds.

I tried to find what he called "Ladysmith Black Mambozo Loop" but couldn't. It seems that is a BAND and there is no track info I could find so it can't be repeated.

Enya – Orinoco Flow seconds 2-7 maybe(that also isn't precise so can't be duplicated per Paper)
Song at bottom. this is a horrible test missing of the elements I would use to locate low frequencies.


Theme from Terminator
seconds 4-9(about)
This track also make no sense.
I put this song into audacity and plotted the spectrum for seconds 4-9 and this is the spectral content
This is THE FIRST terminator theme I found
As you can see, the majority of LF content in this sample is well over 100hz. This sample just doesn't make any sense for testing LF localization including below 80hz
View attachment 155189View attachment 155187

Here is a look at same titled "the terminator theme from youtube:
This version has a stronger "da, da, DA DA DA!"

But upon inspect, we see this issue I suspect would be in the Samples
The attack of the LF sound is missing and the diffuse sound field remains.
In a diffuse or HF/MF attenuated sound field localization is ALWAYS much harder.
View attachment 155195


View attachment 155191View attachment 155192







This will be my last post Regarding Welti's paper.

1. His test design must have music/content that contains localizable LF information.
A. To verify his samples have such information he must prove IT HAS LF content that is localizable.
B. Therefore if he validates his samples he proves LF content is localizable. Ipso Facto

2.
Scientific studies have to be designed in a repeatable way. As demonstrated by my search for the music he used we have sericeous problems here.

1. Ladysmith Black Mambozo Loop.
This is a band name and not a track, so it can't be check or reproduced.

2. Enya and Terminator have LF sound content that I would never dream would be localizable.
Terminator displays a loss of low frequency attack when inverting one side and what's left is a diffuse sound.

3. Enya likewise contains a very low impact, vague LF sound.

Localizing of sound involves:
1. Tonality, close sounds maintain attack/HF/MF content, far away sounds loose those due to the higher attenuation of HF and MF frequencies.
Therefore a low attack, enveloping LF sound is what our brain knows is naturally "far away"

2. Time domain spatial signatures.
Just as HF attenuation through air causes a loss of attack and HF energy giving that "far away" sound that isn't as localizable, so does steady state sounds dominated by reverberant sound fields that mask localization.

3. Psychoacoustic-Knowing and remembering what an instrument or person sounds like allows us to perceive their location.
This is why a person who enjoys symphonic music will pinpoint each instrument more than someone who doesn't.
This is why we can hear someone's voice we know, and locate them in a loud and noisy bar full of people talking.
This is how birds know who their friends and family are, by sound, by memory, by identification.
point is when localizing something like a tom drum we NEVER perceive it as an abstract sound but by it's whole sound and memory of it.

4. Vibratory stimulus.
Regarding sound we have 2 sources:
Bone conduction via sound waves through air

Bone conduction via structure born vibration
If you live in a non-concrete floor home you can feel someone walking down the hallway. Even though people here beg to differ, perception of location is absolutely affected by vibratory stimulus.

A holistic approach to understanding Low Frequency localization should take into account all known pathways to the phenomena.

Welti may be way smarter, way better looking, and have more subwoofers than me but that doesn't matter.
I believe the Welti paper is invalid based on its self-defeating premise, that it's missing crucial audio sample documentation in order to repeat or critique it, and that although cool, can not be used to justify a sound position on the localization of low frequency content in music.
 
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Chromatischism

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Matthew Poe wrote the article in Audioholics because of @David Griesinger's work and his conversations with Griesinger. Let's go to the source. Here are some excerpts of Griesinger's writings.

Below is a screen clip from Griesinger's website (http://www.davidgriesinger.com/). The other quotes are from his paper "Loudspeaker and listener positions for optimal low-frequency spatial reproduction in listening rooms".

View attachment 154800

Griesinger's explanations -- on low frequency localization and its spatial impression ...

View attachment 154801

His conclusions (for this paper) ...

View attachment 154802

David Griesinger, who advocated for stereo bass while working at Harman, wrote:
I believe this model is of high importance for both the study of hearing and speech, and for the practical problem of designing better concert halls and opera houses. The model - assuming it is correct - shows that the human auditory mechanism has evolved over millions of years for the purpose of extracting the maxumum amount of information from a sound field in the presence of non-vital interference of many kinds. The information most needed is the identification of the pitch, timber, localization, and distance of a possibly life threatening source of sound. It makes sense that most of this information is encoded in the sound waves that reach the ear in the harmonics of complex tones - not in the fundamentals. Most background noise is inversely proportional to frequency in its spectrum, and thus is much stronger at low frequencies than at high frequencies. But in addition, the harmonics - being at higher frequencies - contain more information about the pitch of the fundamentals than the fundamentals themselves, and are also easier to localize, since the interaural level differences at high frequencies are much higher than at low frequencies.

Note the bolded text.

He was also a proponent of creating a different kind of bass that is not achievable in our homes except under very specific conditions. Some refer to this now as spacious bass, or "bassiousness". Matthew Poes attempted to replicate this but concluded it probably isn't worth it.
 

GimeDsp

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The reason is not to achieve a "party" sound but to keep bass response linear across all content. If you have "stereo" subs, you will have content-dependent phase interactions between the subs and the speakers that will skew the frequency response. Harman realized this and abandoned "stereo" subs in favor of Sound Field Management.

Indeed. I could see it having use with headphones, like with binaural recording. But with the physics of small room acoustics being ever present, coupled with the psychoacoustics of low frequency sound, most music is mixed mono in the sub bass.
Agreed. Stereo subs should only be considered if you can achieve balanced and smooth response on both.

In many cases, each sub will have good things and bad things about it, and going to mono will mean no matter where a sound is panned
you will get a smooth response.
I posted that before a while back.

I call it a party sound because mono subs have a difference "breath" or energy to them. Much more punch and a "party like" feel to them.
Those are all good things to me.
 
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