Stereo Bass using subwoofers

[Tom Danley]

That has been my impression as well.

In your estimation, what might be the ballpark "low enough" threshold to deliver the transient thumpage in plucking and picking, assuming the rig is "loud enough"?

Hi Duke
For me with an old eb3, a knee in the lower 30's was the way i liked it.
I would say too that if your playing live with a band loud, at least i need a lot more HF because the low bass gets masked by drums.
If you have a compressor, fiddle with that too
Best
Tom

 

[abdo123]

I think this threshold is perhaps higher with most listeners than is generally assumed. As mentioned above, resonance or other distortion that has higher frequencies are likely the culprit. We successfully cross our loudspeaker + sub system at 100hz without localization issues.

honestly if the subwoofer is closer to you than the speakers you will always localize it, not acoustically but mechanically.

 

[Chrispy]

honestly if the subwoofer is closer to you than the speakers you will always localize it, not acoustically but mechanically.

Perhaps if you only have one....

 

[Andysu]

Is it possible that you had the stereo subwoofers out of phase?

Need two Behringer ECM8000 with an audio mixer and maybe use the TrueRTA as you or REW but would have to open two TrueRTA or two REW and select the preference for 1 mic Left and the other REW 2 mic Right. Then place the mics close to each sub using the sine wave 30 20 50 Hz which ever to see if the subs are in the same polarity or if, unsure use a batt connected to each sub looking for forward cone motion. Oh and a lot more besides that.

 

[Duke]

For me with an old eb3, a knee in the lower 30's was the way i liked it.

Thank you, Tom!! I'm not sure that can be done in a "practical" bass cab but I'll fire up my modelling program and find out.

would say too that if your playing live with a band loud, at least i need a lot more HF because the low bass gets masked by drums.

Yes, my normal "target" for a bass cab is the 62 Hz first overtone of low-B. Ime a bigger low end can interfere with the kick.

That being said, there are times when a bass cab that goes really deep is called for. I have a friend, Skip Fantry of Kalium, who makes a bass with a 40" scale which can be tuned to C#0 (about 17 Hz). Imo the fundamental isn't the target, but its 34 Hz first overtone is.

 

[Slayer]

I may be the oddball here. But I run 3 subs in my stereo only rig. One sub is ran in mono (front center) and the two other subs are run in stereo (left and right corners).
Not going to lie, it takes some time getting all the levels, distance, phase etc, adjusted just right, but in the end, once it;s all setup correctly. It's simply fantastic.
Yes it's hard to explain, i will just say it gives me a more real presentation with depth, instrument locations and just a more three dimensional staging in general. than i get running all 3 in mono. Having it this way, i have never felt the need to do any adjustments any more. However when I use to run the all mono method, seems like I always had the need for some tweaking.
So, in short, it does take more time to dial everything in correctly, but i think it's worth it. ( ok, sorry guess it wasn't so short after all )

 

[Chrispy]

I may be the oddball here. But I run 3 subs in my stereo only rig. One sub is ran in mono (front center) and the two other subs are run in stereo (left and right corners).
Not going to lie, it takes some time getting all the levels, distance, phase etc, adjusted just right, but in the end, once it;s all setup correctly. It's simply fantastic.
Yes it's hard to explain, i will just say it gives me a more real presentation with depth, instrument locations and just a more three dimensional staging in general. than i get running all 3 in mono. Having it this way, i have never felt the need to do any adjustments any more. However when I use to run the all mono method, seems like I always had the need for some tweaking.
So, in short, it does take more time to dial everything in correctly, but i think it's worth it. ( ok, sorry guess it wasn't so short after all )

What is the hardware/software you employ for that?

 

[Digital_Thor]

Have a 8 channel DSP pre - where I use 6 channels for two 3 way mains - then use one right channel for two subwoofers, where one is located rather close to the main right, then with a cable a second subwoofer is coupled in parallel and put way further back to my rear right.
I do kinda the same with my last left channel - one sub close to the main and then the last further out to the left.
Since I "only" have one stereo amp for 4 subwoofers - I use cable length to move the speakers for tuning the "phase" together with some creative EQ, and now I have very even and smooth bass.
I know that 4 subwoofers is maybe to much for most... but it really helps with extra sound sources.

 

[Slayer]

What is the hardware/software you employ for that?

Hey Chrispy, Well not ashamed to admit it, but i had to have help. The company where I do some business with, does large HT installs. So i had a guy come over with his computer and several mic's etc. I'm not sure what program he used, but it only cost me $150.
I know he lurks around this and other sites, so "David if your reading this please chime in".
Anyways I was happy to pay for it.

 

[Chrispy]

Hey Chrispy, Well not ashamed to admit it, but i had to have help. The company where I do some business with, does large HT installs. So i had a guy come over with his computer and several mic's etc. I'm not sure what program he used, but it only cost me $150.
I know he lurks around this and other sites, so "David if your reading this please chime in".
Anyways I was happy to pay for it.

I meant more the hardware you have for your system, but having someone calibrate it for you works.

 

[Slayer]

I meant more the hardware you have for your system, but having someone calibrate it for you works.

My stereo system setup is pretty basic since I only use it for music.
Preamp - Parasound Halo P5 2.1 (tried the P6 didn't like the sound signature, yes they should sound the same, but they didn't)
Amp - Anthem audio
computer-Laptop
Onkyo CD player
HD Radio tuner
One 18'' EV subwoofer used in mono
Two Monolith subs that are ran in stereo mode, one for the left channel - one for the right channel (LOL, guess that was obvious )
Front mains are two way 15'' drivers with compression driver
Nothing so fancy like some of the systems here, but it does the job for me. Main reason I got the Parasound is it's flexibility and bass management.
Always looking to upgrade as usual. Looking real hard at the JTR Noesis 215's

 

[SadMonster]

Hi, I use stereo subwoofers and I’ve often gotten people telling me to set them up mono, but the localization is so obvious for some reason with them set even at 80hz, which is why I got a second subwoofer in the first place.

With the subwoofers setup as stereo I can’t localize them even at 120hz.

With the crossover at 120hz, I don’t have any measurements or scientific explanation as to why this is, the whole system sounds better. The bass feels more physically present and the speakers sound less boxy. Maybe placebo or something, but that’s my experience.

 

[SadMonster]

I just played this stereo bass test that doesn’t play anything above 80hz and it’s soooooooooooooooo blatantly obviously localizable that I can’t ever see myself using mono subwoofers

http://3141592.pio2001.online.fr/pictures/homecinema-fr/20191124_ChezIgor/Pink_80_abcd.flac

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I just played this stereo bass test that doesn’t play anything above 80hz and it’s soooooooooooooooo blatantly obviously localizable that I can’t ever see myself using mono subwoofers

Not a proper test.

 

[MarkS]

why not? (genuine question)

 

[SadMonster]

Not a proper test.

How should I do it? I was able to tell that it pans around the speakers before finding out that it does if that counts for anything. I know it wasn’t double blinded, but I’ll happily post a video of me successfully doing it double blinded if you can provide a test link.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I just played this stereo bass test that doesn’t play anything above 80hz and it’s soooooooooooooooo blatantly obviously localizable that I can’t ever see myself using mono subwoofers

why not? (genuine question)

These tones have significant content (albeit declining) output well above 80Hz. My live spectrum analyzer shows a broad peak from 60-80Hz. Below that, there is a sharp dip around 45Hz followed by a sharp rise to a new, higher peak at 20Hz. Above the 60-80Hz peak, the output declines smoothly but with significant output beyond 400Hz. Since higher pitch tones are more easily localizable, the spectral content of these samples isn't a real test of your premise. There are also inter-sample transients which cue the mind to anticipate change.

Try some cleaner samples (perhaps wobble tones) and, of course, blinded.

 

[DWPress]

I run 2 subs mono from diagonal corners of my 16x20' room which from what I've read is less than ideal for a 2 sub set up but was the only space available for placement. The XO is at 55Hz but my mains have capable 15" bass drivers in big boxes so I guess I'm lucky with some judicious DSP. I have a high pass filter at around 25Hz because some of the equipment I have in the studio (not a sound studio) resonates badly at about 22Hz but if I bypass it I worry also about structural integrity of the building. The SVS is -4.7Db in the back corner and the main passive sub is -5.8Db in the front left corner.

The front sub and speakers are pretty much equal distance so I haven't implemented any delay (yet), phase is good between the mains but I'm not sure what to do with the back sub as it is technically closer? Does one delay everything in front to compensate for the time arrival of a rear sub? I read a paper about this recently but can't find it right now.

I previously ran 3 subs with the 18" passive running mono and 2x 8" powered units running stereo in the rear corners. The 8" subs were probably not resolving enough at 30-55dB to really have much going on but on the occasional track it seemed to shine. Not nearly as effective in dB terms as running them mono, much more (controllable) thump.

Variable smoothing with convolution EQ applied up to 300Hz result with a MMM measurement in REW.

 

[Andysu]

Using two Behringer ECM8000 microphones placed left to right of the JBL 4645C left and JBL 4645 right with mics near the ports. The audio mixers pan pots are set left and right with two TrueRTA opened up so I can observe stereo sub bass, but only using mono sub bass pink noise or sine wave, low frequencies while observing the RTA and listening to the pressure changes in sine wave tones.

This is I guess sort of new technique as I not seen anyone else with home theatre/cinemas using this technique. I can use this technique for the LCR of each L C and C R or Lc Rc, Lc C, C Rc or any of the sidewall rear back surrounds, overhead surrounds and below surrounds.

I not using stereo sub bass as I would have to install another Behringer DCX2496 and do some complicated wiring for what is simple.

 

[Chromatischism]

The front sub and speakers are pretty much equal distance so I haven't implemented any delay (yet), phase is good between the mains but I'm not sure what to do with the back sub as it is technically closer? Does one delay everything in front to compensate for the time arrival of a rear sub? I read a paper about this recently but can't find it right now.

Try delaying the rear sub by the time to the front sub. Works best when both subs are against the walls. Also see: "double bass array".